The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting at the Senedd. The first item this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Joyce Watson.

STEM Education and Careers

Joyce Watson AC: 1. What is the Welsh Government doing to encourage girls into science, technology, engineering and mathematicseducation and careers? OQ59722

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Joyce Watson for that question. The Welsh Government works with schools, colleges, employers, and with role models, to ensure that girls and young women are positively encouraged to select STEM-related qualifications and careers.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you for that answer, First Minister. This Friday is International Women in Engineering Day, and I'll be marking that with a visit to Dragon LNG. There are good initiatives out there, as you say, like the Engineering Education Scheme Wales programme, but, in the workplace, it remains the case that 73 per cent of the STEM workforce are men, women make up only 14.5 per cent of engineers, and only 20 per cent of women science graduates go on to work in STEM careers, compared with 44 per cent of men. It matters not just for gender equality, but because there is a shortfall of 173,000 workers in the UK STEM sector, costing the economy £1.5 billion a year. Climate change, food and water security, future pandemics and the global challenges we face demand STEM-based solutions. We can't afford to waste female talent and knowledge.So, what is the Welsh Government doing to help close that gap and to work with other partners to secure that?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank Joyce Watson for those points, and I agree with her basic premise very much that the future in the Welsh economy is going to be the competition for workers to take up the posts that are waiting for workers to fulfil them. And that quite certainly means that the talents and the abilities of over half the population cannot possibly be ignored in that quest.Now, girls consistently outperform boys in maths and science attainment throughout compulsory education. In GCSEs, girls outperform boys in every aspect of the sciences other than physics. And girls outperform boys at A-level as well. What we have to do is, as Joyce Watson suggests, Llywydd, make a greater effort to persuade those young women to use those qualifications in the workplace in the jobs that rely on STEM backgrounds to be successful. It is why, thinking of what Joyce Watson said about Friday being the women in engineering day in Wales, the Engineering Education Scheme Wales has a particular strength, encouraging young girls as early as year 8 in school to have contact with employers, to have contact with people in higher education, so that they take an active interest in STEM before they make GCSE choices, knowing that those choices lead on into employment possibilities of the future. Right across the effort of Government—but not simply Government, employers as well—we need a focus on the way in which young women are persuaded that there are a range of possibilities for them there in the workplace, and that the investment that they make in studying STEM subjects will pay off for them in career opportunities in the future.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Following on from what you just said, First Minister, about promoting an active interest to girls on STEM subjects before they get to GCSE level, as a proud ambassador for Girlguiding, I've been pleased to see that, over the last two months, Girlguiding Gwent have held space-themed events for Rainbows and Brownies, and over 80 guides have taken part in a STEM day. These girls have had an excellent time making lemon batteries, binary bracelets, and so much more, which, of course, has helped promote STEM subject to these girls.
As a Government, you should be doing everything in your power to ensure these girls have the best opportunities in STEM, and, obviously, a level playing field and opportunities when accessing higher education. Yet, First Minister, your Government seems to want to make it harder than ever for young female learners to go into STEM, by combining those three separate sciences into double science at GCSE level, as I mentioned the other week. You didn't want to recognise it last time, but this is something that has been widely criticised by the profession and the science sector alike: Dr Lowri Mainwaring, academic team lead in biomedical sciences at Cardiff Metropolitan University; Professor Alma Harris from the department of education and childhood studies at Swansea University; Eluned Parrott, head of Wales at the Institute of Physics. This Government, in one breath, is asking young girls to take up science, technology, engineering, mathematics and jobs for the future, and then, in the same breath, you're putting them at an immediate disadvantage to the rest of the UK when they're applying for jobs and universities. First Minister, how is restricting young people's STEM education actually helping girls to go into STEM?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I've rehearsed this issue with the Member previously. I don't agree with the points she makes, but, far more importantly than my point of view, neither do those people who work in the field. This is a proposal by Qualifications Wales—those people who we rely on for their expertise in plotting a path to futures for our young people. Industry bodies—. And, actually, I heard that she mentioned Eluned Parrott; I understand that Eluned Parrott is in support of the proposals that the Welsh Government makes, and, moreover, that those parts, those representative bodies that we rely on for advice in chemistry, in biology, and so on, are in favour of these proposals, because they believe that more young people—more young people—will end up studying science at that level, and doing it in a way that gives them the confidence to know that they can go on and study it at higher levels as well. I hear a series of assertions from the Member, in an evidence-free way. These are her opinions, which she wishes to persuade us of, in the teeth of the evidence—not opinions, the evidence—from those who are experts in the field that the proposals will do more to encourage young women, and young men, to study sciences in Wales, and that's why the Government is pursuing those ambitions.

Environmentally Friendly Schools

Russell George AC: 2. How is the Welsh Government encouraging schools to become more environmentally friendly? OQ59694

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I thank Russell George for that question, Llywydd? Our young people are the best advocates for making schools environmentally friendly. The success of the Eco-Schools movement in Wales provides an effective way in which that commitment can be translated into practical action.

Russell George AC: Thank you, First Minister. I agree with you entirely—I think young people are the best people to lead this area. Last week, I met with children from Llanidloes Primary School—Belle, Reggie, Millie and Willow—who are members of the school's eco-committee. Now, they're very keen to see a reduction of plastic waste when it comes to the provision of school milk, and they detailed to me that they receive 78 individual small plastic bottles of milk each day as part of a UK-wide scheme, which is part-funded also by the Welsh Government. The young people outlined to me that the school uses 15,210 plastic milk containers each year. They also outlined to me that this cost £5,171.40—they're very good at maths at this school, I should add. Now, if they purchased the milk themselves, including delivery, and used recyclable cups, there would be a huge saving in weight terms; in fact, they calculated that at three times the weight per year of their teacher, Mrs Stead. So, apart from the environmental savings, there would be a huge cost saving as well, at 50 per cent. In fairness to the children, they also considered there would be a resource in washing the reusable cups as well. They've met with their local authority, they've met with others, but they just feel that they've been knocking their heads against a brick wall, unfortunately—they feel demoralised, they feel like barriers are being put in place. So, can I ask, First Minister, that you task one of your Welsh Government officials to work with the children and the school, to run a pilot project, because, after all, there could be a huge saving in plastic use, and also a huge cost saving, if you think of £2,500 plus every primary school, each year? Thank you, First Minister.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Russell George very much for that supplementary question. That is a remarkable combination of problem-solving skills that we saw from the students at Llanidloes. I'm very pleased to agree that we will find someone to talk directly to the school, and, indeed, to the children, to see whether their ideas can find a further way into practical action. But it is great to see, isn't it, the way that young people themselves are not only interested, in that general sense, in the future of the environment, but they translate that into the things that they see in front of them every day, and then come forward with those sorts of imaginative ideas to create new solutions.

John Griffiths AC: First Minister, as Members of the Senedd, I think we do get a strong sense of that passion that school pupils have for the environment when schools come here to the Senedd to visit and to learn more about the work of Senedd Members, and also when we visit schools. I've been very pleased to see local schools in Newport East setting a very good example, I think, in terms of recognising the passion of their pupils for the environment and organising around it: inviting local representatives in to discuss environmental issues and how action can be taken forward; organising survival skills experiences; taking lessons forward through Forest School; and climate action change measures, First Minister. So, would you agree with me that we need to look at schools in Wales that are setting a very good example, and make sure that we draw on that passion, as we take these policies forward?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I agree, of course, that we ought to find all the ways we can to draw on that passionate commitment that young people feel to the future of the planet that they will go on inhabiting. We will meet tomorrow with the Youth Parliament here, in this room, and I'm sure we will hear then views of those young people on climate change, on biodiversity loss, on ways in which we can act together to improve the environment.
Now, I happen to have seen that the Member for Newport East was in Ringland Primary School recently, meeting their eco-council and sharing ideas with them. Just as in Llanidloes, here's another school with lots of practical ideas. I was taken by the fact that I saw that they have a weekly recycling competition in which every class has everything that they have collected that weak weighed, and then a winner of the competition declared every week, and that creates an interest in every child and in every part of the school in doing the practical things they can do to make a difference.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I had a wonderful meeting with Albany school's council, and they raised the issue of adults feeding pigeons that prevented them using the little bit of green space they had around their school. So, children make the best eco-warriors. They also raised with me the problem of cars parking on pavements, which got in the way of their walking to school safely. So, I think there's a great deal more we can do. I would want to just remind the Government about the importance of ensuring that all students have the ability to walk, cycle or scoot to school, if that's physically possible. It may not be possible for all the students in Llanidloes, who may have a distance to go. But, just as we have a scheme for enabling people to buy a bike if they work for us here in the Senedd, has any consideration been given to having some sort of bicycle loan scheme so families would be able to buy a bike slowly?

Mark Drakeford AC: I agree with Jenny Rathbone that children are the most persuasive advocates with their own parents about actions that can be taken to improve environment around their own schools. As every Member here in the Senedd, I'm sure, I have visited schools where you see the displays of the messages that children convey to their parents about smoking, about littering, about parking, about all the things that make that immediate difference to the environment of the child. And, in fact, I believe that there are schemes that already exist that encourage schools to buy bicycles themselves so children can borrow them and can cycle back and forth to school—combining that with cycling proficiency classes, all the things that make cycling fun, as well as making it a better alternative for children getting back and forth from home to school. And, of course, I encourage all schools and all local education authorities to go on doing everything they can to persuade young people and to enable young people to make those healthy and active choices.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T.Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. With your permission, can I welcome the new leader of Plaid Cymru to his position, and wish him well—not too well—in that position? [Laughter.] I’m sure we will have some good debates and exchanges across the floor of the Welsh Parliament.
First Minister, last week’s unemployment figures here in Wales were disappointing. They showed that, regrettably, the numbers were going up for unemployment here in Wales, as opposed to going down in other parts of the United Kingdom. What assessment has the Welsh Government been able to make of those figures, and what actions is it taking to respond to the rising number of unemployed here in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: I'm aware, of course, of last week's labour market statistics. The background to them is a serious one for the whole of the United Kingdom. The Conservative Party has crashed the economy, and we now see that working out in the pressures we see in the workplace as well. [Interruption.] I don't think that I can believe that I can think of Conservative Party Members laughing at the idea of the way that they've conducted the economic responsibilities of this country. But as far as Welsh figures are concerned, the figures that were published last week show a mixed picture. While the headline figures of unemployment went up in Wales, the figures that the ONS publish on monthly paid employees in Wales show that figure actually going up, and going up in Wales more strongly than any other part of the United Kingdom. So, they were two sets of figures, published on the same day, pointing in apparently different directions; while unemployment in Wales went up, the number of monthly paid employees also went up in the same month. And as ever, with any monthly set of figures, it is better to look over a range of months before we see which of these contradictory indicators turns out to be telling us the true story of the current state of the Welsh economy.

Andrew RT Davies AC: First Minister, the UK economy was the fastest-growing economy for the last two years in the G7. Germany is in recession; despite all your backbenchers and your Government wishing this country to be in recession, this country is not in recession. Last week’s figures clearly showed that unemployment was going up in this part of the United Kingdom, but going down in other parts of the United Kingdom. It is a fact that gross value added under Labour’s watch has not gone up as it should have gone up, it is a fact that there is £2,000 less in Welsh pay packets than those in other parts of the United Kingdom, and it is a fact that, sadly, we have more long-term unemployed in this part of the United Kingdom. The other fact is that we have 5 per cent of the population here in Wales, but we only generate 3 per cent of the wealth. For 25 years, the Labour Party have failed to improve those figures. I ask you again, First Minister: what is the Welsh Government doing to increase the long-term prospects for the Welsh economy and get those numbers moving in the right direction? Because those unemployment numbers last week just reinforced the failure of policy of Welsh Labour in Government here in Wales.

Mark Drakeford AC: The best thing that can happen to the Welsh economy is that we have a Labour Government at the United Kingdom level. If there was a single action that we could take to make sure that people here in Wales enjoyed the economic futures that they deserve, it would be to have a competent Government at the UK level, a Government without the astonishing stains on its economic record that the current UK Government has. It's genuinely astonishing to me that the Conservative Party should think that they can offer anybody a lecture on how to conduct economic affairs here in this Chamber.
The Member was wrong—he's often wrong; we know—when he said to me that economic inactivity rates in Wales were getting worse, because the figures that he relied on in his first question said that economic inactivity in Wales fell by 0.6 per cent in the last quarter in Wales. So, we are actually managing to get more people back into work from economic inactivity here in Wales—not fewer, as he said in his second question. And if he wants to look back over the whole of devolution, what he will find is the remarkable success story of so much here in Wales.
In the 1980s and the 1990s, the employment gap between Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom—. That gap has been halved in the period of devolution. If he looks back at economic inactivity figures in the early 1990s, Wales was a complete outlier in the United Kingdom, and that gap had been growing year on year. It would have astonished anybody in 1999 if you had said that 20 years later the economic inactivity gap between Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom had shrunk to the level that it is today. The Welsh economy, Llywydd, has been a success story in the last 25 years, in spite of and not because of the policies that his party have pursued in office.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Sometimes, you do wonder whether you should be in the comedy hall rather than on the floor of the Welsh Parliament, First Minister. It is a fact that when you were special adviser to Rhodri Morgan, you set the target for lifting GVA to be at least the average of the rest of the UK. You failed to do that. I highlighted to you how pay packets here in Wales are £2,000 lighter than in other parts of the United Kingdom, and I also highlighted to you how we have 5 per cent of the UK population but we only generate 3 per cent of the wealth. I asked you what strategy, what policy, you have in place to look forwards, not backwards, to make sure we can improve those numbers. You offered absolutely nothing. I offered you the opportunity. At the third time of asking, give us some idea of where you're taking the Welsh economy, with some tangible results that we can measure this Government on, because at the moment the results are showing a scorecard of 'very poor' when it comes to the economy here in Wales.

Mark Drakeford AC: I don't think the economic record of the United Kingdom is a laughing matter, nor do I think that, when the leader of the opposition finds himself on such thin ice, simply shouting ever louder at me is a way of disguising the weakness of his position. He's shouting at me again. It's a way in which he seeks to disguise the thinness of his own argument. Here in Wales, people tomorrow will face new hikes in interest rates. People who are paying mortgages in Wales will find themselves worse off again because of the economic mismanagement of his party. Here in Wales, this Government goes on investing in the Welsh economy, investing in the skills that people will need in the future, investing in the infrastructure that supports our economic effort, investing in those new industries—in cyber security, in renewable energy, in those things that offer Wales a successful economic future. We do so against the headwinds of the irresponsible actions of the UK Government. How well we remember how the leader of the opposition supported first Boris Johnson and then Liz Truss. How will he explain that to people in Wales, when they find their economic futures destroyed by the irresponsible actions of a Conservative Government that he has gone—[Interruption.]

I think the questions have already been asked. Leader of the opposition, can you listen to the answer to the question?

Mark Drakeford AC: —time and again out of his way to support here in Wales?

The new leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. It is a privilege to be called as leader of Plaid Cymru to hold the Welsh Government and the First Minister of Wales to account. With your permission, Llywydd, I would like to thank my fellow Members on these benches for their support, for the best wishes from Members across the Chamber, and the relatively good wishes expressed by the leader of the Conservative Party. We all come here to the Senedd—or we certainly should come here to the Senedd—with a picture of the kind of society we want to work towards, and for me that includes a clear vision of the Wales I aspire to.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The Wales I strive for is more ambitious. It's fairer. It's greener. It's more prosperous. It's a country both independent and connected, setting its own course and seeking new partnerships. It's a journey, and I invite the First Minister to work with me towards that vision, even if he himself hasn't been convinced to the extent that I have in our capabilities as a nation. I invite him to push our boundaries as a nation right now. So, on the issue of greater powers in general, taking more responsibility, does he agree with the principle of 'if you don't ask, you don't get'?

Mark Drakeford AC: To begin, Llywydd, I'd like say'welcome back' to Rhun ap Iorwerth to First Minister's questions, as the leader of the opposition said. Best of luck to him in the new post that he's accepted.

Mark Drakeford AC: As far as the future of Wales is concerned, there is much in what Rhun ap Iorwerth said that would be a shared ambition by many people across this part the Chamber. I do look forward to go on working with him and with other Members of his party as part of the co-operation agreement that we have successfully navigated in the first 18 months. We have a great deal of important work to accomplish in the second half of that agreement.
I'll answer the specific question in this way, Llywydd: the Gordon Brown report, commissioned by my party as a prospectus for a next Labour Government, whenever that might come, says that there is no reason why anything that is devolved to Scotland should not be devolved to Wales, should that be the wish of this Senedd. I think that that provides a route to answering the question that Rhun ap Iorwerth raised. If the Senedd wants to ask for powers that are already devolved in another part of the United Kingdom to be exercised here, the Gordon Brown report says there should be no barrier to that taking place.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'm grateful for those greetings from the First Minister, and I'm serious about collaboration.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Last week, my Plaid Cymru colleagues described why devolving power over water was so important, and how disappointed we were that the Welsh Government wanted that transfer of power delayed. But, of course, I'm pleased that the First Minister agrees with us now on the basic principle around that particular issue. But I want to push him for more, and I'm sure he’d expect me to want to push him for more.
With the Conservatives, I get it. As a party, they can barely hide their contempt for devolution, just as they've shown that they hold basic principles of integrity and trust in contempt. It's incredible, isn't it, that a majority of Welsh Conservative MPs effectively sided with Boris Johnson last night by not voting on that Commons report. You'd have thought that that was the least they could have done to try to get some redemption.
But back to those powers. Where there's real convergence between the First Minister and myself—on water, yes, but on HS2 funding and other issues too—I welcome that genuinely. But it has to be more than words. Does he agree that, whilst Keir Starmer, the leader of the Labour Party, disagrees on so many of those issues, and won't promise to deliver, they really are just words?

Mark Drakeford AC: First of all, let me agree on this point—it was an astonishing act of political cowardice last night that the Prime Minister of this country failed to back the report of an independent committee of the House of Commons charged with that investigation and coming up, with a majority of Conservative MPs on that committee, with a series of recommendations. The fact that the Prime Minister failed to support that committee, I think, is an astonishing example of his political weakness, and I'm quite sure that he will, and he deserves to, regret it in future as well.
As far as devolution is concerned, of course I don't share what the leader of Plaid Cymru said about the Labour Party's hesitation, because the Labour Party is the party of devolution. There would be no devolution if it were not for the Labour Party's commitment to that cause. There would have been no growth in the powers that we saw in the Senedd here. The coming of primary law-making powers to this Senedd would not have happened if it were not for a Labour Government and the 2006 Act that a Labour Government put on the statute book. I look forward, absolutely, to the day when there is a Labour Government again at Westminster, a Government committed to the principles of devolution, a Government determined to shape a United Kingdom where power and authority is dispersed amongst the regions as well as the nations. I think that will give us a very different prospectus here in the Senedd, and I look forward very much to the day when we're in that position once again.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'm certainly very proud of the co-operation that happened over a period of decades that led to devolution and the many decades of pressure from Plaid Cymru to get us to that point. But what I'm getting at today with my questionsis that we really need to see the First Minister hold his own party's feet to the fire, but I also want to see more from this Government itself when it comes to seeking the powers to forge our own future. On the devolution of justice and police, another example, there was a recent written answer from a UK Minister saying that Welsh Government hasn't actually made any formal request for the devolution of justice and policing, despite it being an apparent policy position of theirs for the best part of a decade now. We'll talk more about that in a Plaid Cymru debate here in the Senedd tomorrow. But we need to keep making the case for our own future as a nation. So, back to where I started: if you don't ask, you don't get. How will the First Minister make sure that Wales is heard?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, first of all, Llywydd, let me be clear: it is absolute nonsense for any Conservative Minister to claim that we have not asked formally for those powers. We have been in painful discussions with the UK Government over the Thomas commission report ever since it was published. We have gained tiny, tiny bits of ground on the many recommendations that Lord Thomas put to the UK Government itself: tiny gains in data, important gains, but, in the grander scheme of things, fractional compared to the ambitious agenda that Lord Thomas laid out and that we have put time and time and time again to that UK Government.
This Government in Wales continues to articulate the case for the devolution of the justice system based on that authoritative report. The sub-committee on justice that I sit on with my colleague Jane Hutt and chaired by the Counsel General develops that case alongside the wider legal community and the professional community here in Wales. The Gordon Brown report, Llywydd, to return to that, proposes the devolution of youth justice and the probation service. I look forward to both of those things happening. I think further devolution lies beyond that, but, in many ways, the first step on the journey can be the hardest to take, and the fact that the Brown report absolutely unambiguously endorses that those responsibilities should become responsibilities here in the Senedd—through that committee that we sit on, we are preparing now for the reality of those powers coming here to Wales; we will go on making that case, and we will go on making that case on the grounds that those services where decisions are made closer to the people directly involved in them and those people directly affected by them will be better decisions, and that those responsibilities will be more effectively discharged when they are here on the floor of this Senedd.

Health and Mortality Inequalities

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 3. What measures is the Welsh Government taking to reduce health and mortality inequalities? OQ59687

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, health inequalities are a manifestation of wider economic and social inequalities that shape the life chances of Welsh citizens. We know that the earliest actions we can take—the Healthy Start scheme and compensatory policies such as Flying Start—have the greatest impact, including reductions in health and mortality inequalities.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: The First Minister will agree with me that one of the greatest injustices globally, but also here in Wales, is when one's quality of life, one's health outcomes, but also one's life expectancy are narrowed by the circumstances of birth or the circumstances of your environment around you. We had a report before I tabled this question—I didn't know this report was coming—that showed the 10-year gap in mortality between places in my constituency like Ynysawdre in Bettws and Blackmill and those who live in Laleston and Brackla and Coity. And we had the cancer cross-party group report on how disadvantage impacts on cancer outcomes. This is Dr Julian Tudor Hart's inverse care law writ large, all those years after the creation of the NHS. So, 75 years on from the creation of the NHS, I think it's right that we ask: what would Nye do now? What would Attlee do now? What would Jim Griffiths do now, and others of that ilk, if they were looking at this and saying, 'How do we deal with this injustice?' But, more importantly, First Minister, what will we do now, in this seventy-fifth year of the NHS, to talk about the conditions of housing, the conditions of your upbringing, as well as health, and move to community and preventative models so that we narrow further that injustice in the gap of life expectancy and health outcomes? It is simply not fair, and we must do all we can.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I think Huw Irranca-Davies has very well articulated the fact that improvement in health inequalities does not lie in the hands of the health service primarily; it lies in dealing with those underlying and precipitating causes that impact on the life chances of people in every part of our communities. That is why, as a Government, we invest in housing, because we know that the housing conditions in which you live have a fundamental impact on your health, from the earliest years right through to later on in life. It's why we invest in education to make sure that our young people have the best chance of going on to earn a living in an economy that is thriving, and in which they themselves find themselves able to live out lives where healthy life expectancy—not simply life expectancy itself—where healthy life expectancy lies in front of them.
As far as the contribution of the health service itself is concerned, then it is the things that my colleague, the health Minister, has emphasised so often when speaking here on the floor of the Senedd. It is smoking, it is obesity, it is the public health agenda that has that shaping impact on people's life changes, and it is moving services closer to where people live so that those people who live today with health disadvantages have those disadvantages eroded. In the Member's own constituency, I've been following the work of the health board in its plan to remodel Maesteg Community Hospital, a hospital that I've visited with the Member myself in the past, into a new future Maesteg community health hub, bringing social care and healthcare together, reducing the number of people who aren't able to take up appointments when they have to travel further afield, decreasing the number of late presentations. That's another real feature of health inequalities, Dirprwy Lywydd. People who have the least wait the longest before they bring their problems to the health service. When you move those services closer to those communities, you can erode those inequalities as well. And then the health service plays its part, but its part alongside all those other things that we need to do to tackle the scandal not just of health inequalities, but the way in which inequality itself has been allowed to grow in the United Kingdom over the last 15 years and more.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Darren Millar AC: One of the other issues in relation to health inequalities is the huge disparity in the performance of the NHS in different parts of Wales. People in north Wales, for example, have the worst-performing emergency departments in the country. All three of the major hospitals in north Wales are severely underperforming, and people in north Wales are likely to wait longer for referral to treatment as well for many, many different operations. So, what action is the Welsh Government taking in order to turn around those inequalities so that we don't have the sort of postcode system that we have in terms of decent access to treatment when people need it?

Mark Drakeford AC: I don't disagree with the opening proposition that inequalities within the health service itself are something that we have to work harder to eradicate. When we used to talk about the prudent healthcare agenda on the floor of the Senedd here, I remember often quoting the fact that you were four times as likely to have your tonsils removed if you lived on Ynys Môn than if you were inside the same health health board but were living in Wrexham. So, those variations in healthcare I agree are an important part of making sure that there is an effort to reduce health inequalities everywhere. And just as every part of Wales has its own challenges, so every part of Wales does better than anywhere else in some other important parts of healthcare.
So, when you think of health inequalities, one of the major weapons in the armoury, Dirprwy Lywydd, is vaccination to prevent avoidable illness, and, here, Betsi Cadwaladr leads the whole of Wales. It has the best flu vaccination rates in the whole of Wales. It has the best childhood vaccination rates of anywhere in Wales. Indeed, the rate of child immunisation by the age of five was at its highest since records began in 2020-21, and the leading player, the leading health board across the whole of Wales in that record performance, was Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. So, I’m not disagreeing with the Member that there are challenges there that need to be addressed, but, if you want to give a fair and rounded picture, you would also have to recognise that there are many, many things in which, as in every part of Wales, that health board excels in the service it provides to its local population.

Jane Dodds AS: May I extend a warm welcome to Rhun ap Iorwerth on behalf of the Liberal Democrats? Thank you.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, First Minister. I had cause recently to visit an independent prescriber. You talked about services being close to the people. Independent prescribers and pharmacists are very close to our people, and they actually need continued support and funding to ensure that we have more and that they feel better supported and skilled. Dylan Jones is a fantastic independent prescriber based in Llanidloes and Llanwrtyd Wells. He says it’s one of the best things he’s ever done. But many of them talk about how important it is to have placements with GPs, and GPs say it’s important for them to have the funding and the support in order to provide those placements. So, I just wondered if you could talk about how you plan to ensure that this fabulous service, particularly in rural areas like Mid and West Wales, gets the support it needs to expand and carry on. Thank you—diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, thank you very much to Jane Dodds.

Mark Drakeford AC: In answering Huw Irranca-Davies, Llywydd, I tried to say about the importance of moving services closer to people in order to deal with health inequalities, and the fantastic work that has gone on in Wales in community pharmacy, a cause that has been supported right across this Chamber over the whole of the period of devolution, has moved, as Jane Dodds says, into a new and very important phase with the investment we are making into independent prescribing rights for pharmacists. Llanidloes has been much mentioned on the floor of the Senedd this afternoon, but that’s exactly the sort of community where, if you have a wider primary care team, where people are enabled to practice at the top of their clinical licence, making the maximum use of the skills that they have acquired, and, in the case of pharmacists now, being able to prescribe independently within the range of that clinical competence, of course it means that services in more rural towns and villages come closer to people.
We still have nearly 700 community pharmacists here in Wales. The numbers in Wales are not falling as they are elsewhere in the United Kingdom, and that is partly, I believe, because of the partnership we have had with that profession and the investment that we are making in it. The more that we are able to do in the way that Jane Dodds said to recognise and to enhance the value that every member of that clinical team, that primary care team, is able to add, then the more we will have services that are available to people where people will go to see the person who is best equipped to respond to their need, and pharmacists are a fundamental part of the way in which we shape that future.

The Public Bus Emergency

Carolyn Thomas AS: 4. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact the current public bus emergency will have on the provisions of the learner travel Measure? OQ59705

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Carolyn Thomas. Llywydd, on Friday, the Welsh Government published a statement with bus industry partners and others. It confirmed that funding provided this year will ensure that essential services can continue. The impact on learners ahead of the new school year continues to be an integral part of this joint work.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for your response, First Minister. I am aware, especially in north Wales, that public transport is tied up with education transport—they help fund each other—and I really commend the partnership working that's been happening over the last few weeks to save as many bus routes as possible. However, we are on a skeletal service following two decades of declining passenger usage and also cuts in subsidies following more than a decade of public service cuts. We also have a driver shortage, and I know that regular drivers mean a lot to passengers; they encourage confidence to get passengers back on buses, they know the timetables and they offer advice as well. So, now we have some stability, going forward, would the Welsh Government help drive a recruitment drive to get drivers back onto buses, and also to get the passenger numbers back up again to make our services more stable, going forward? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Carolyn Thomas for that. She is right that the statement that the Deputy Minister made last week is signed up to by six different partners across the industry, local authorities and the Welsh Government. There has been a huge effort over recent weeks to arrive at that point where we're now able to move into a bus transition funding model.
But, Carolyn Thomas is also right, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the challenge facing the bus industry is not simply funding; it is also a workforce challenge as well. The age profile of bus drivers is an ageing profile, and that is particularly true in learner travel, where companies rely on people who work not full time, but certain hours of the day and so on. It is a four-nation challenge, because the same profile is to be found in every part of the United Kingdom, and it is why we in Wales are part of a new four-nation approach to attracting people back into that industry, to find ways of overcoming barriers and to find ways in which people who previously worked in this industry could refresh their skills and take up posts in the industry again.
Our ReAct+ programme, Dirprwy Lywydd, for example, directly supports people who have lost their job in one industry and who may have previously worked as bus drivers, but who need now to go on courses that refresh their training and make sure that they have the skills and qualifications needed to be a bus driver in the contemporary period. A campaign to persuade people that this is a job that they could do and a contribution that they could make is, of course, something that we will look at very positively.

James Evans MS: First Minister, in March, the Deputy Minister for Climate Change said that a wide review was going to be taking place of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 because of the complex needs around learners and, actually, that there was going to be integration of more public transport into the delivery of learner transport across the country. However, I'd like to know how that's going and what consultation has been taking place with parents and local authorities, because in my constituency, where we've actually relied more on public transport, in Builth Wells, there were children being left on the side of the road or children actually standing on the bus because there was physically no room for those pupils to go on that public transport. So, can we have some assurances that when this review is taking place, that if we are moving to a model where we do use more public transport, we'll make sure there are those buses available so that we do not leave learners on the side of the road and young people are not forced to stand on a bus?

Mark Drakeford AC: The review is proceeding and proceeding actively. Mr Evans asked what engagement there was with local authorities. There was a deadline of 5 June for local authorities to submit their evidence to that review—evidence around costs, numbers, modes of delivery of school transport. Over half of local authorities in Wales had returned their surveys by that date and we're expecting the remainder to submit their evidence very imminently. We're carrying out direct consultation with children and young people themselves. Between 16 June and 17 July, there will be direct consultation being carried out in schools in Wales, commissioned through Young Wales—that organisation—to make sure that we capture the views and preferences of young people themselves in that home-school transport.
My understanding is that Welsh Government officials expect to draw together all the strands in the review that has been taking place so that they can provide evidence directly to Minister by the end of this Senedd term. The Minister will then be able to review that himself over the summer, and then return to the Senedd in the autumn, so that Members are informed of the outcome of that review.

The Private Rented Housing Sector

Vikki Howells AC: 5. Will the First Minister set out the Welsh Government’s priorities for improving the private rented housing sector during the remainder of this Senedd term? OQ59676

Mark Drakeford AC: The introduction of the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 last December has put in place the framework for significant improvements to the private rented sector, including a requirement for a written contract, better security of tenure and a greater certainty for landlords. Safety aspects have also been improved, including the requirement for mains-powered smoke alarms.

Vikki Howells AC: First Minister, the Citizens Advice report 'Left in the cold' found that one in four private renters feel unable to heat their home to a comfortable temperature, seven in 10 have experienced excessive cold, damp or mould, and one in five didn't complain because they were worried about eviction. This reflects casework that I am picking with private renters waiting years, sometimes, to have heating fixed, having rooms badly affected by damp, and being threatened with eviction if they complain. I know there will be a statement here this afternoon on the Warm Homes programme, but could you outline how the Welsh Government is making sure that landlords in the private rented sector provide homes that are warm and habitable?

Mark Drakeford AC: Thanks to Vikki Howells for that, Dirprwy Lywydd. Indeed, the Minister will be making a statement this afternoon on the latest iteration of the Warm Homes programme and the difference that that has made already and will go on making in the lives of people who live in the most challenged physical circumstances. But, as a result of the actions taken by this Senedd, the problems that Vikki Howells has identified now have new solutions that tenants, particularly, can put to work. As I said in my original answer, Dirprwy Lywydd, in December of last year, the fitness for human habitation regulations came into force. They identify 29 specific issues that landlords have to attend to when they come to let properties in the private rented sector, and amongst those matters are measures to ensure that the property does not suffer from mould or damp or is excessively cold.
The Renting Homes (Wales) Act, of course, introduced protections against retaliatory evictions, which we know have been a feature of those properties that are not properly fit for human habitation, and when a tenant complains about it, instead of those conditions being put right, they've been issued with eviction notices instead. The renting homes Act will put an end to that, as well as providing tenants with the right not to pay rent during any period during which the dwelling is identified as unfit for human habitation.
Dirprwy Lywydd, Wales is full of good landlords, let's be sure about that, who attend properly to the standards of their property and who respond to complaints when they are made. But where there are landlords—and unfortunately there are too many instances of this as well—who do not live up to the basic standards that this Senedd requires, we have now put in place a new series of protections, and those protections will be directly exerciseable by those tenants themselves.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you to Vikki for this question. Of course, I take pride that the co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Government has led to a White Paper that we will see in due time, and I look forward to contributing to that. I also welcome the announcement on a Green Paper that was made recently with a focus on rentals. You will know that we here have been calling for a system to control rents in Wales. Of course, the main argument against that was that it would likely lead to a reduction in the housing market, which isn't the case, because recently I had an opportunity to attend an international social housing festival in Barcelona and had conversations with the socialists Renaud Payre, the vice-president of the Lyon metropolitan authority, and Ada Colau, mayor of Barcelona.Both mentioned the programme of introducing rent control that they’ve introduced in their own provinces particularly successfully. So, do you accept that a new kind of rent control, linked to the quality of housing, could also work here in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Mabon ap Gwynfor for that supplementary question, and I thank him for what he said about the importance of the items that we have in the co-operation agreement. And the reason why we’ve published a Green Paper is because we want to draw evidence in from everywhere, and where there are new ideas available from abroad, or from Scotland, or wherever the ideas emerge that can help us on the journey towards a White Paper, we are open to hearing from and considering the evidence that is submitted.
I’m not familiar with the evidence from Barcelona, but it looks like those are ideas that we could draw upon in the discussions that will be part of the work that will go on between Plaid Cymru and the Government to move forward to the White Paper, and to devise new ways of dealing in Wales with the problems that we know face the sector and people who rely on private sector housing.

Housing in North Wales

Sam Rowlands MS: 6. What is the Welsh Government's strategy for housing in North Wales? OQ59723

Mark Drakeford AC: Our strategy is to increase the supply of housing for rent and for purchase, while improving the quality of housing to match our climate change obligations.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, First Minister, for that response. First Minister, you’ll be aware that, across Wales, around 13,000 people are currently in temporary accommodation, whether that be bed and breakfasts or hotels, at great cost to them personally and also to the public purse, as well, of course. At the same time, in north Wales, around 1,000 social homes are not able to be built because of Welsh Government policy and a lack of clarity among house builders on how to handle that policy. I know there was a summit earlier this this year, seeking to progress issues to resolve that problem. I wonder if you can give an update here today as to how that’s going, and how people in north Wales will be able to see those houses being built that we so desperately need.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Sam Rowlands for drawing attention to the pressures that are there in temporary accommodation in Wales. They’re there, as the Member will know, because of our policy of making sure that nobody is left homeless here in Wales. A series of actions are being taken by the Welsh Government to increase the supply of housing to meet that demand, whether that is bringing empty homes back into use, whether it is the support we continue to provide for Help to Buy here in Wales, whether it is the work that we support through the North Wales Economic Ambition Board that will, for example, result in over 300 new homes being built on the former Denbigh hospital site.
The issue of phosphates and the need to make sure that, when land is developed, it is not done in a way that adds to the very significant pressures we know are there to be found in rivers in Wales is a difficult problem to solve, because we want to see those homes built, but we cannot possibly agree that they are built in a way that deliberately and knowingly adds to another difficulty. That is why the summit was so important in bringing all those interests round the table who have a contribution to make to solving that problem. And there was a real focus in the last summit on finding ways in which land can be released for those very important housing purposes in a way that does not lead to further degradation of the condition of rivers in Wales; new ideas from Dŵr Cymru as to how they might be able to assist; and new ideas from the planning officers that we had there as to how land could be released for those purposes.
So, I want to give the Member an assurance that that was an intensely practically focused discussion, looking for ways in which we can release that land, because those houses are needed in north Wales as elsewhere, but not being prepared to solve one problem at the expense of another public policy problem, which, as we know, has obtained a real purchase on the minds of the public, concerned as they are at the state of the natural environment.

Stroke Survivors

Mark Isherwood AC: 7. How does the Welsh Government support stroke survivors? OQ59675

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, amongst the actions that the health service takes to support stroke survivors are early supported discharge and the provision of essential rehabilitation to enable recovery at home.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. Earlier this month, I visited Buckley stroke group, with the Stroke Association, to learn about their experience of stroke in Flintshire, Wrexham and Denbighshire. There are currently over 70,000 stroke survivors in Wales, and the number is expected to increase by 50 per cent over the next 20 years. I was reminded of the Sentinel Stroke National Audit Programme data showing that the time between a stroke patient starting to experience symptoms to when they arrive at hospital averages four hours, eight minutes in England, six hours, five minutes in Wales, and nine hours, 23 minutes at Wrexham Maelor Hospital. Issues raised with me by stroke survivors included lack of joined-up care—although professionals were kind and caring—having a stroke in England, but not being told what was available when they returned to Wales; trouble getting through to GPs; not being told what happens when you have a stroke, and, when asking their GP if they can see a stroke specialist, being told 'Get me a name, and I will refer you.'
With the stroke programme board planning engagement on the future of stroke services, how will you ensure that the voices of stroke survivors and carers are heard and involved in the co-production of this work?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I think we're very lucky in Wales to have such a powerful partnership and a powerful partner in the Stroke Association. And I heard what the Member said about the Stroke Association being part of his visit in Buckley. We have a long-standing relationship in Wales between the professional leadership of stroke services, and I think we've also always been very fortunate in Wales to have powerful clinicians who act as our national clinical leads. And Dr Shakeel Ahmad, who is the current national clinical lead for stroke services in Wales, has continued that way of doing things, making sure that the voice of patients is powerfully heard in the way in which stroke programmes, and stroke improvements in Wales, are brought about. We're very grateful for the way in which they are prepared, not simply to be the voice of patients in relaying experiences, but being the voice of patients in devising solutions as well.
And in the list of issues to which Mark Isherwood referred, there were a number of them that seemed to me to be amenable to solution very easily, simply by making sure that that lived experience is conveyed in the powerful way that the Stroke Association does to people who are responsible for their care.

And finally, question 8, Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you so much, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Qatar Airways at Cardiff Airport

Natasha Asghar AS: 8. Will the First Minister provide an update on discussions with Qatar Airways regarding their return to Cardiff Airport? OQ59677

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I would welcome the resumption of the Doha service from Cardiff, but this is a commercial matter, to be pursued through negotiations between the airport executive team and Qatar Airways.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you, First Minister, for your response. Of course, news of Qatar Airways's potential return to Cardiff Airport is welcome, I'm sure, by all of us, even though it is a commercial decision—I agree with you there. With more flights running, passenger numbers should, in theory, increase, although we'll wait and see if that actually happens in the airport.
As I'm sure you're aware, First Minister, not too long ago, the UK Government announced a big shake-up of airport security rules, with the 100-ml rule on liquids and the requirement to remove large electric items from bags coming to an end. This major change, which may have come about because of new technology, will cut queuing and improve passenger experiences. Now, this change will be gradual, with airports having to install this new technique and improve screening equipment by June 2024, which is the deadline date. Obviously, carrying out these improvements at Cardiff Airport will mean that someone will have to put their hand into their pocket. I recently visited Heathrow Airport, where staff explained to me the challenges and huge sums of money involved in carrying out these improvements. [Laughter.] You may laugh, but at the end of the day, gaining knowledge about something that we need to improve here is worth while.
First Minister, are you confident that Cardiff Airport will meet the 2024 deadline, and have you worked out the total bill for these works, as I'm sure taxpayers across Wales will be keen to know what that's going to cost them?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I am indeed aware of the changes in technologies, and I'm aware of the fact that it is the single most outstanding example of the unfairness of the UK Government's policies towards airports not just here in Wales, but across the United Kingdom, because, having imposed these new obligations on airports, they refuse to fund any regional airport to meet those new standards. And that means that while there are obligations on Cardiff Airport, there's no funding at all from those who imposed those obligations in the first place.
That is not true of big airports like Heathrow, to which Natasha Asghar referred, but it is true for small, regional airports that don't have the same level of resources. So, my message would be very clear indeed: that level of government that imposes requirements on airports should also be the level of government that takes responsibility for making sure that airports have the necessary funding to live up to the new obligations with which they are now faced. And that should be fair; it should be fair. That's the key point here. There shouldn't be help for some and no help for others, but that is the current policy of the UK Government.

Thank you, First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

We'll now move on to the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. There are four changes to this week's business. Firstly, the Minister for Climate Change will make a statement on the Warm Homes programme. Secondly, the statement on sustainable drainage systems has been postponed. Thirdly, the Report Stage debate on the Agriculture (Wales) Bill 2022 has been reduced to 30 minutes, and, finally, Business Committee has agreed that tomorrow's debate on Adam Price's legislative proposal will be postponed. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar AC: Can I call for an oral statement from the Deputy Minister for Climate Change in relation to the recent publication of the north wales transport commission interim report? I read that report with interest, and we all know, in north Wales, that our transport infrastructure does need to improve, and there are concerns about things like bus transport. But one of the things that many people are alarmed about in north Wales is the prospect of potential road charging on some of our trunk road network. You will know, as well as I do, how important the A483, the A55 and other arterial routes are for people getting around, particularly those that connect rural parts of north Wales to the main transport network. It does suggest, in the report, that the recommendation of the commission is to continue to explore the introduction of road charging. I know no final decisions have obviously been made yet, but I do think we need a wide discussion on this amongst north Wales Members, and I think a statement would be helpful in helping to initiate that. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, the report to which you refer is an independent report, which obviously the Deputy Minister for Climate Change will consider. Obviously, it's just part of the wider policy that the Deputy Minister is currently considering around all aspects of transport, and obviously this one is focused on north Wales. I will certainly continue to have my regular meetings with the Deputy Minister, with my north Wales hat on, and at the most appropriate time—. Obviously, the Deputy Minister always keeps us updated on such issues.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'd like to request a statement, please, updating us on what pressure is being put on the UK Government and the ombudsman to bring justice to the Women Against State Pension Inequality women, who've been denied their state pensions. You will know that more than 200,000 women have already died without this injustice being put right. There is an absence of integrity and morality in what's been denied these women, which has been physically and emotionally exhausting for them and their brave campaigners who are fighting for what's right, including—and I declare the interest—my mother, who is a WASPI woman. The Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman investigation into the Department for Work and Pensions on this issue has not concluded. There is no timetable for when it will conclude, and women suffer in the meantime. So, will the Government please update the Senedd on what actions the Counsel General and the social justice Minister will take to tackle this moral impasse?

Lesley Griffiths AC: You're quite right, those changes to the state pension age—many women knew absolutely nothing about them and it's impacted millions of women not just in Wales, but obviously right across the UK. And it's not just the financial impact, it's also the impact on their physical and mental health and their well-being. So, Welsh Government does continue to make representations to the UK Government. It's really important that these women have a fair and just outcome from something that was of no fault of their own, and women, such as your mother—. Women born in the 1950s did not have the life opportunities or the job opportunities that we enjoy today, so it is really important. The Counsel General did meet last week with a group of WASPI women, and has said thatthe Welsh Government is very supportive; we're limited in what we can do, but what we can do is obviously put pressure on the UK Government. I know, following the WASPI campaign's legal challenge against the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman, the ombudsman has agreed to reconsider the Stage 2 report.

Mike Hedges AC: I'm asking for a Government statement on the use of open-source software. Open-source software is computer software that is released under a license in which the copyright holder grants users the rights to use, study, change and distribute the software and its source code to anyone and for any use. Open-source software may be developed in a collaborative public manner, but, most importantly, it is shared at no cost. This includes Linux and its derivatives as operating systems. It's a way of saving money in the public sector. The Welsh Government have consistently used expensive commercial software. I'm not asking for a commitment to using it, just for a statement on it, and the reason why it is not routinely used. It saves paying millions of pounds to Microsoft.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Welsh Government's digital strategy does recognise how collaboration in digital innovation can help improve services and increase efficiency. And in certain circumstances, open-source software can be suitable, it can be relevant and it can be the right thing to use. But, as with all software, it does carry risks, such as malicious code insertion, and, taken alongside the potential for more limited formal support and documentation, that can, again, lead to heightened risk of data breaches and security compromises. So, I think it's really important that any organisations that do use it satisfy themselves that they have appropriate access to support and expertise if they are using open-source software for critical services. And it's really important that organisations get the balance right between licensed and unlicensed software, based on, obviously, their organisational needs and if they've got that appetite for risk.

Gareth Davies AS: Can I ask for an urgent Government statement this afternoon on Llanerch bridge in the Vale of Clwyd, between Trefnant and Tremeirchion? I and many others attended a public meeting at the White House in Rhuallt last Thursday, and it was attended by many local people, from Trefnant andTremeirchion, myself, the local MP Dr James Davies, council leaders and council officers. And there was strong emphasis from Denbighshire County Council officers—not councillors—that financial commitment from the Welsh Government is needed for the bridge replacement to, indeed, become a reality. So, can I ask for a statement from the Welsh Government, committing to how much capital the Welsh Government are willing to make towards the restoration of Llanerch bridge, as this has been going on for far too long, and the people of the Vale of Clwyd need answers?

Lesley Griffiths AC: As far as I'm aware, the Welsh Government is still waiting for the business case from the local authority. But I know that the Minister for Climate Change's officials are working with the council at the current time.

Luke Fletcher AS: I'd like to ask for a statement, written or oral, on the state of the Garw river. Like many constituents in Bridgend county, I often take my dog for a walk in Bryngarw Country Park, through which the Garw river runs. It's been reported that, just two miles up the river, on 325 out of the 365 days in a year, everything that households flush and tip down their toilets and sinks flows untreated for thousands of hours a year in the river. The combined sewer overflows at Pontyrhyl and Llangeinor poured out raw sewage for a total of 7,804 hours and 7,784 hours each respectively in 2022. A briefing from the Minister would also be greatly appreciated.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Minister for Climate Change has just heard your request. I think it would be better if you wrote to her directly, and then she'll be able to respond.

Altaf Hussain AS: I would like to request a statement from the Minister for Climate Change on the provision of social housing, or perhaps a joint statement with the Minister for Social Justice, as the reason for this request stems from a meeting I attended talking about the closure of the Neath Port Talbot welcome centre. Ukrainian refugee families are being told that, with the closure of the centre imminent, they may be moved to other parts of Wales. A number of large Ukrainian families remain housed at the welcome centres as there are no suitable properties to offer them permanent accommodation. Two thirds of children are attending local schools, and 10 of the adults are in local employment, and all now face having their lives uprooted once more,because we have failed to provide more permanent accommodation. But it's not just our Ukraine guests who are suffering because of a lack of homes. NPT council is also housing eight homeless families in a local hotel, and one had to be sent to a Bristol hotel, because of a severe accommodation shortage.
Minister, there is clearly an urgent need for housing across Wales, and it needs action from the Welsh Government, particularly if we are to maintain our status as a nation of sanctuary. I would therefore ask for an urgent statement from the Welsh Government outlining how you will address the housing shortfalls for our refugees and Welsh domiciled families, ideally before the closure of the welcome centres in just a few short weeks. Diolch yn fawr.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, as you say, many people opened their homes to people fleeing the war in Ukraine, and the Minister for Social Justice continues to work very closely with people who did settle in Wales. And, as you say, some of them will have been here over a year, their children are settled in school, and it is really important that we do all we can. As you'll be aware, we had no additional funding from the UK Government; we did this at our own cost, because it absolutely was the right thing to do, and we are indeed a nation of sanctuary. But I know the Minister for Social Justice still has those ongoing complications and, obviously, works very closely with not just the Minister for Climate Change in relation to housing, but also the Minister for Finance and Local Government, to see what more we can do to help house the families who, as you say, have settled here.

Alun Davies AC: The business statement contains a commitment to a 30-minute statement on the NHS at 75. It hardly seems an adequate way to mark this anniversary, with a statement for 30 minutes. I would like to ask the Government to table a motion and a debate on the future of the NHS.
It's three quarters of a century, of course, since Aneurin Bevan said he was going to 'Tredegarise' the rest of the United Kingdom, and perhaps the best way we can pay tribute to the memory of Nye and to the reality of a national health service is to have a serious debate on its future—how we see the next 75 years, how we want to see the NHS developing to serve future generations. My parents were both born under the Tredegar Medical Aid Society, prior to the establishment of the NHS, but I'm sure that my children want to see what this place thinks about the future of their NHS. And the people who are working in the NHS today will expect us to chart a future that takes care of its institution, but also ensures that the institution that was born three quarters of a century ago is fit for the next three quarters of a century.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'll consider the request.

Finally, James Evans.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Trefnydd, as you are well aware, the consultation on the release and control of game birds in Wales is coming to an end. Thousands of people have responded to that consultation as they see that as an attack on their jobs, on their livelihoods and their businesses. What I'd like to request is a debate, in Government time, on these regulations, if they come forward, to ensure that those thousands of people who have responded to that consultation can get their views known in this Chamber, and the views of the people that they represent are aired in this Chamber.

Lesley Griffiths AC: The consultation actually closes today. Obviously, we will then consider the responses.

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: The Warm Homes Programme

Item 3 is a statement by the Minister for Climate Change on the Warm Homes programme. I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. We published our lessons learned and Government response documents last Wednesday, but, due to technical issues, the policy statement for the new Warm Homes programme was not available at the same time. So, firstly, Dirprwy Lywydd, let me apologise for the delay in publication, but today I will set out the detail that that statement provides.
Our new programme must and will balance the dual objectives of tackling fuel poverty and reducing the climate impacts of our housing stock. We will build on our approach of improving the energy efficiency of Welsh homes, ensuring we only use the energy we need to keep homes comfortably warm at an affordable cost. Families should not have to make impossible choices, such as between buying food and keeping warm. The current energy crisis has underlined the urgent need to make heating our homes more affordable. Whilst I and my colleagues continue to demand systemic change from the UK Government to generate a fairer system for all, our new Warm Homes programme will continue to be the Welsh Government's primary mechanism to tackle fuel poverty.

Julie James AC: As we go about addressing the immediate need to support households with their fuel bills, we also cannot lose sight of the climate emergency and our longer term pathway to net zero. We are continuing a 'fabric, worst and low-carbon first' approach, improving the performance of the least thermally efficient low-income households in Wales. In our new programme, however, we are going further in choosing low-carbon solutions and avoiding fossil fuel replacement systems wherever possible.
All households in Wales will have access to the Warm Homes programme for advice and support on how best to improve the energy efficiency of their homes, and how measures can be funded. In relation to the installation of measures, I believe we should focus our attention on households who are least able to pay for improvements themselves in the owner-occupier, private rented and housing co-operative sectors. The optimised retrofit programme and the Welsh housing quality standard already drive up energy efficiency in social housing and I am proud of the impact they are having.
We have listened to our stakeholders and carefully considered eligibility criteria for the new scheme to ensure it delivers our objectives. We will set a low-income threshold, rather than basing eligibility solely on means-tested benefits, to ensure we target the poorest in society. In terms of eligible homes, we will treat dwellings with an EPC rating of E and below. This will be extended to EPC D for households including individuals with a recognised health condition, such as chronic respiratory, circulatory or mental health conditions. Our aim is to offer lower income households with an EPC of D but no health condition a place on a reserve list, with periodic reviews to ensure the pipeline for works is operating at capacity. I want to make sure every penny of the fund allocated to this programme is put to good use.
We will make provision for buildings that contain more than one dwelling, such as blocks of flats, which are often more effectively treated as a collective. There will be flexibility in the eligibility criteria so as not to disadvantage fuel-poor households who share buildings with non-eligible households. We will work with local authorities and energy companies to maximise other funding steams, such as the energy company obligation, to target households in most need and those who can benefit from these schemes.
In terms of the measures offered to these households, we are adopting a fabric-first approach, improving thermal efficiency to a satisfactory standard before deploying heating and ventilation measures. Our actions will be guided by a whole-house assessment, completed by independent assessors. Low-carbon technologies will be prioritised where it makes sense to do so. We will no longer fit replacement gas boilers as a preferred solution. Where it is cost-effective, we will replace end-of-life boilers with low-carbon alternatives such as heat pumps. Where moving to an electric heating system would cause significant increases in running costs, the priority could be to repair energy-efficient gas boilers to extend their lives. Innovative technologies such as hybrid heat pumps or communal systems may be considered where repair is not a cost-effective or a viable option.
We've heard and responded to feedback on the inclusion of windows and doors, and small-scale enabling works within a pre-agreed financial limit. It is important we do not allow, for example, the minor replacement of roof tiles to prevent solar PV being installed, providing potentially life-changing free energy to a disadvantaged household.
Finally, households will no longer be limited to single applications. If a household supported by a previous Warm Homes scheme remains in fuel poverty and meets the eligibility criteria, they may now apply for additional support.
Focusing resource on deeper retrofit for the worst-off in society underlines our commitment to a just transition and will help us learn lessons to inform and enable wider and deeper retrofit in the future. We also recognise the need to stimulate skills and supply chain development in this sector. While we cannot commit beyond the current spending review period, I can confirm around £30 million has been put aside for the programme for its first year of delivery.
Learning lessons from the past, I am committed to ensuring consumers are protected against low standards of delivery and the installation of unsuitable measures. The new service will require works are to PAS standards, lowering the likelihood of unsatisfactory outcomes, offering legal recourse where required, and opening up other funding streams such as the energy company obligation. We are further encouraging quality by ensuring there is independence between the energy advice, the organisation installing the measures, and the quality assurance and audit suppliers.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I have described the service as it will be delivered from day one. However, we also need to be flexible to changing circumstances. Therefore, while this will initially be the demand-led service, it will not preclude area-based initiatives. We will work with the delivery agents and our wider partners to scope this element, giving consideration to other initiatives such as ECO.
This new programme is part of our work to develop a joined-up approach across all tenures and income levels to drive decarbonisation. As a first step, we aim to publish our heat strategy this year, which will set out the vision and priority areas for action. Our approach delivers on our values and makes pragmatic choices to ensure we target our resources appropriately. It will deliver an integrated approach: responding to the current cost-of-living crisis, promoting sustainable Welsh materials; providing trusted energy efficiency and decarbonisation advice; supporting Welsh skills and jobs; and learning from the lessons and experience gained from the Welsh Government's optimised retrofit programme. Diolch.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister. I actually think this is a really interesting and quite comprehensive statement that you've brought forward, and it's fair to say we share, basically, the same ambitions. We've got to improve the energy efficiency of Welsh homes, and we've got to eradicate fuel poverty. Now, you will recall that your first ambition was to look—I declare an interest as a property owner—at social housing, but evidence that we took in the climate change committee proved to us all that, for this work, to get us where we need to be in terms of net zero, all types of housing should be addressed. Now, the Chartered Institute of Housing stated to our climate change committee that privately owned accommodation is the elephant in the room that must be addressed if housing it to play its role. We also know that Wales's old housing stock is not the easiest to retrofit. Now, previous schemes that you've basically referred to in the Warm Homes programme have actually contributed to damp, condensation, and, it is fair to say, in a lot of cases, it was a failure.
Now, I would like to know what monitoring—and I have a good reason for asking you this question in a minute—you have in place for works that are carried out that are, technically, meant to be supporting residents. Now, I know that the new programme will have a low-income threshold rather than means-tested benefits, so I just wouldn't mind you defining 'low income'.
Concerns have been raised with me that the scheme could potentially be used for new fossil-fuel heating systems, and this might undermine the net-zero work. Just a comment on that.
Our climate change committee has previously been clear that you have an important role to play in changing consumer behaviour and to drive energy efficiency retrofit. So, we know that, unless we get this innovation right, Welsh homes will simply not achieve net zero by 2050. We know that the climate change report states that emissions increased by 2 per cent in 2020, gas demand in residential buildings has remained broadly similar over the last decade, and electricity demand in residential buildings rose by 5 per cent.
Now, your statement is excellent, Minister. [Interruption.] Anyway, what I would like to ask you—. Out of the blue, at one of my surgeries two weeks ago, a lady came to me and, I have to say, she was distraught. She's had one of these low-carbon technologies. Somebody knocked on her door and said, 'You can have this all-singing, all-dancing heat pump'. So, she allowed them to go ahead and, it's fair to say, she's distraught. The scheme cost £18,000. She had a three-bedroomed house, and I've seen all the evidential photographs. She's had one room completely taken over now, that has this big thing in there with pipework going everywhere. She's been left with holes in her ceilings, flooring ripped up and badly put back. She's ended up with the boiler taken out of the kitchen and really bad work. Outside, the garden's been messed about with, and, I have to say, the quality of the work is shoddy, to say the least. She's had no certification guarantees, and she's had electricity works carried out, gas works carried out, taken out, and I'm really shocked. So, I've written to the company who did this, Minister. I cannot find who has funded this scheme. All I get told is, 'It's the Warm Homes programme.' 'Oh, okay, so it's the Welsh Government.' 'No, no, no. I don't know who funds us because we're doing it on behalf of another company who's doing it on behalf of someone else.' And, suddenly, the building safety and all the problems that we've had with cladding sprung to mind. She tells me now that she's got other friends who live in the same area who will be coming to see me because they have now got into a situation themselves where they simply have taken on this new thing. She didn't even sign any paperwork until the very end. She wasn't asked to sign anything. So, basically, what I'm asking, Minister, is how you can monitor these works. What we don't want to do—. We don't want another Arbed disaster. We want to make sure, if chunks of taxpayers' money are going into these schemes, that the works are fitted to a high quality and a safe standard. Diolch.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Janet. On your constituent's dilemma, that sounds like a scam to me, but I can't possibly know. If you write to me and let me know the address, I can certainly check that it isn't one of our programmes, but it can't be, because there's no way that a programme that hasn't got documentation and so on in it is one of ours. But write and tell me the address, and I will just do one check. That doesn't sound like any government-funded programme that I've ever come across, so personally I'd be directing your constituent to Citizens Advice or a lawyer, because that really does just sound like a very bad situation.
What I was setting out in my statement, though, was that we are learning the lessons of some of the schemes we've had in the past, and where we've had very successful schemes in the past, we've nevertheless had some homes that really haven't been well treated. We've put some of those right where possible. Some of them from the UK Government schemes have also fallen into that category. So, we're learning the lessons of this. Part of what I'm announcing today is an advisory service that will allow people to take advice about what should happen in their homes, so your constituent would have been able to access that advice service, which would tell her whether her home was suitable for an air-source heat pump or whatever it is, and help her understand what can be done with the sort of house she's got. That's coming straight out of the optimised retrofit programme, where we deliberately tech-trialled a series of different solutions to different sorts of house—six archetype houses—to make sure that the solution we were proposing actually works. I've mentioned that many times. We're now able to roll that advice out because we've got enough data coming out of it to be able to give people reliable advice.
Then, we're targeting those in fuel poverty. Fuel poverty is very difficult because you can actually have quite a high income and be an owner-occupier buying a house on a mortgage and still be in fuel poverty. So, trying to target it at the right level for the households who are very unlikely to be able to manage but where it will significantly decrease their energy bill as well as their net-zero contribution is where we're at. And it is a compromise—there's no doubt about that. It's one of the things we'll have to do on the path because we have a cost-of-living crisis as well as a climate crisis. So, as part of our just transition plans, we're trying to help as many people as possible. But what this programme does is, for the first time, really, it looks holistically at the whole property. It puts insulating the entire home first, and then, where a gas boiler can be repaired, with the embodied carbon in that, we will repair it; if it can't be repaired, then different systems will come into play. But, yes, if you write to me about your constituent, Janet. I very much doubt it, but I'll check.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: The Warm Homes programme set out some highly commendable targets, and there's no doubt that the outcomes are making a real difference for many people. Making homes warmer and more comfortable whilst also significantly contributing to decarbonisation shows that we are serious as a nation about tackling both climate change and the cost-of-living crises, supporting vulnerable people while also improving their well-being and resilience to avoidable ill health.
However, as we evaluate the previous programme, we must accept that there are serious lessons to be learnt. As far as the new iteration of the Warm Homes programme is concerned, I'm perplexed as to why it's taken so long to reach this announcement today. Considering the real urgency around this issue, and the fact that the Equality and Social Justice Committee's report intofuel poverty and the Warm Homes programme was debated in the Siambr over a year ago, why has it taken so long for this announcement to be made, with it being a last-minute announcement at that?
Looking at the previous iteration, we all know the calamity in Bridgend, and I know from personal experience in Tanygrisiau in my own constituency that things didn't work out as planned. So, what lessons has the Minister learnt from these mistakes, and what bearing will it have on the new programme?
Many people in constituencies across Wales, including my own, live in listed buildings, where remedial works are nearly impossible or, indeed, unlawful. But these homes, in many cases, are energy inefficient and house vulnerable people. In brief, could the Minister provide some further insight into how listed properties fit into this programme?
In terms of data, we need to understand the scale of impact the Warm Homes programme has had so far. So, will the Minister provide data on the number of households that have benefited from the programme to date? Additionally, an analysis of the programme's impact on the health and well-being of individuals and families would be invaluable in comprehending its overall success. Such information will enable us to assess whether the Warm Homes programme is truly reaching those who need it most, and making a meaningful difference in their lives. So, will the Minister share the data of the impact of the programme on the health of participants?
A key component in addressing the energy efficiency of Welsh housing stock is the Welsh Government's ambition to provide 20,000 new low-carbon affordable homes by the end of this Senedd term. So, what progress has the Welsh Government made towards achieving this target? Are we on track to meet that goal by 2026?
In a similar vein, aside from building new energy-efficient social affordable homes, another key imperative is to make existing homes more energy efficient, given that Wales has the least energy-efficient housing stock in Europe. In part, achieving this will require home owners to be aware of the measures they can take to make their homes more energy efficient, and have access to necessary products and services. This would, of course, require a skilled workforce capable of delivering such measures. Municipal authorities across Europe, such as Valencia, have developed one-stop shops where home owners can access house decarbonisation and efficiency guidance, products and services, making it faster, simpler and more convenient for people to contribute to decarbonisation whilst improving their homes. I'd be interested to hear the Minister's perspective on this approach, and whether she'd consider adopting such a policy in Wales.
Technological advancements in energy efficiency present us with new opportunities and solutions. I'd appreciate hearing the Minister's thoughts on how the Welsh Government's plans to incorporate these emerging technologies into the Warm Homes programme will be impacted. Are there any research and development initiatives under way to explore innovative approaches that can enhance energy efficiency in our homes?
The Warm Homes programme must cater to the needs of disadvantaged communities both in urban and rural areas. So, I implore the Minister to elaborate on how the programme specifically targets these communities and ensures equitable access to its benefits. By proactively addressing this issue, we can bridge the gap and create a more inclusive and just society.
Finally, my colleagues Peredur Owen Griffiths and Hefin David attended a meeting at Caerphilly Miners Centre for the Community recently, where local residents raised a number of pertinent questions, which I'd like to convey, at least some of them, here. They were asking if the Minister had thought of interest-free loans to carry out retrofitting, with repayments not due to start until after reduced heating bills can be expected, or had the Minister thought of free training for builders and craftspeople in modern techniques and materials for retrofitting.
Finally, just to respond to Janet Finch-Saunders's story in her constituency, I have a similar case study in my constituency in Blaenau Ffestiniog, so it does seem that some people are at least trying to jump on the bandwagon of the Warm Homes programme and claiming it as something that they can make money off themselves. So, it would be good to look into that. Diolch.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Mabon. That was quite a long list of questions, to be fair. If you have somebody who's got a specific issue like that, then do please write in. I think the likelihood is it isn't a Government-sponsored programme; it's somebody who's preying on people who don't have the right advice. But it's worth checking and I'm very happy to do so.
Just in terms of why so long, one of the things that we've been very keen to do is to make sure that the data coming out of the optimised retrofit programme is fit for purpose and can be spread out, in exactly the way a number of your questions point to. So, we wanted very much to be able to have the advice, set up the advice. One of the lessons learned is that the advice on what the home needs should be separate from the people doing the installation, so that there's no—and I don't mean to disrespect many of our very good installers—incentive to up the level of work that the house needs; the advice would be provided separately. That is one of the things we've learned. And then I said in my statement that we'll be very careful to make sure that all of the right protections are in place, so if the workmanship isn't done to standard, there is a legal route to remedy, but there is also a better auditing process and a spot inspection process to go with it.
I just want to emphasise that the vast majority of people who've benefited from the Welsh Warm Homes programmes in the past—and, indeed, from the UK Government programmes in the past—were satisfied, but there's a body of people who did have work that was not to standard, and we want to make sure that that is absolutely minimised or eradicated. So, I agree with all of that. But the reason it's coming forward now is because we wanted the data to be available so that we properly advise people with each of the types of houses that we're mostly dealing with in Wales.
On listed buildings, I'm afraid I'll have to write to you about that, Mabon, because one of the problems with listed buildings is they tend to be very unique, and if you have an older property—I have an older property myself—it’s very difficult to get the right advice for that. So, I’ll write to you separately about that. There’s a very complicated set of things we’re doing to try and cover off people with unusual houses that require specialist help.
On the old programmes, I’m just announcing the new programme today, but eventually, Deputy Llywydd, we will bring the response to the old programmes, the evaluation and monitoring reports. I’ll certainly be doing that in the foreseeable future, but today I’m just announcing the new programmes. Obviously, we don’t have that information at the moment.
In terms of things like interest-free loans and so on, we’ve been doing, Vaughan Gething and myself, a lot of work with the Development Bank of Wales about products that might be available to people. There’s a piece of work going on at the moment about other mechanisms to allow people to decarbonise their homes while they live in them, and perhaps pay the cost of the decarbonisation on sale or on inheritance—so, land charging the property for the cost of the actual installation rather than the accrued benefit to the house, for example. So we are actively looking at ways we can encourage people who might have an asset, but are cash poor, to invest. We absolutely do want to do that, so we’re actively considering methodologies for that.
And then in terms of commercial properties—and for those of you who have swimming pools in your constituencies, you might want to consider this—we do have the Welsh Government energy service, which does have a circulating interest-free loan, and it works in exactly the way you described. So, basically, the loan is given to install whatever the renewable technology is—often solar panels for a swimming pool, for example—and then the repayment is calibrated for the saving of the energy that comes back, over a period of time, and then that money’s recycled to another project. So, that’s in existence, but it’s currently only available for commercial properties, due to a variety of legal complications I won’t go into.
And then I just wanted to say as well that we really do want people to have confidence in the advice that they’re given. I did say in my statement that we’re very technology neutral here, so the advice will encompass new technologies as they emerge, and also other innovative solutions. I am very keen on area-based solutions, and what we’ve done is we’ve worked very hard so that an area that has some people who could afford to do it themselves, and other people who couldn’t afford to do it themselves, are not disadvantaged if there’s an area solution to be had, so the area solution can still go ahead under the programme. There are a number of pilot projects around Wales that Members might want to go and have a look at—one in Mike Hedges’s constituency in Swansea, where solar installations have been put on those homes that are capable of having them efficiently. The battery storage is shared and then the energy is shared out amongst the whole community. So there are quite innovative solutions under way as part of this programme.

Jenny Rathbone AC: This really is a good news day. Thank you very much, indeed, Minister for your statement. I very much welcome the free, impartial advice that anybody can get on how to decarbonise the building they happen to be living in, or that they own and rent out. Because I have to assume that most people are not doing the logical thing. If they own it outright, they can certainly pay for the retrofitting work that gets them out of the grip of the Tory energy policy that forces them to pay through the nose for something that's pegged to the spot price of gas. So, I assume that either they are just ignorant of what is available or they are nervous about getting involved in the sort of scams we've just been talking about, or they are just uncertain about what is the best thing for them. So, I think this is a really, really important development, because presumably there will be a massive increase in demand as a result, and I just wondered what assessment the Government has made on how it will stimulate the market for training by all the army of plumbers, electricians and roofers who have yet to understand how to do this. Because I'm astonished by people who put slate tiles on their roofs rather than solar panels when the roof needs repairing. It seems to me completely illogical and it has to be based on ignorance on the part of the householder and, indeed, the people who are sticking the new roof on.

Thank you, Jenny—

Jenny Rathbone AC: So, my question—

No, you've asked the question. You wandered, and we're well over time. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Jenny, there are several things to say there. First of all, the advice service will give advice on how best to invest in decarbonisation of your home with a view to bringing your energy costs down. Some of the energy efficiency measures that people talk about actually aren't particularly cost saving in particular circumstances, and so getting that rightis really important. There are other issues around solar panel installation and so on, about the capacity of your house to have a water supply that's sufficient to hold the energy and so on, so it is very important to get the right advice for the type of home that you have.
And then the other thing to say is that it's just the way that the housing market has been working, particularly over the last 14 years of a Conservative Government, that it does tend to be people who are retired and had the benefit of an earlier Labour administrations who have enough money to do it, and they tend to be very wary about investing in something with a payback period of over 10 years. So, making sure that you have the right advice for how to invest that in your home is really important. Also, one of the only good sides about the cost of energy is, actually, the payback period is considerably less, of course, because you can get yourself off grid. But quite a lot of people just don't understand how that works and they don't understand how the tariff works.
We do have grid problems in some parts of Wales—not everywhere, of course, but in some parts of Wales there are actual grid problems with connecting to the grid for a two-way feed. So, it is a bit complicated and it is important to get the right advice. However, as I said to Mabon, we are working very actively with the Development Bank of Wales and, actually, with other lenders to see if we can get schemes under way that will allow people to take out equity release-type money, for example, or to see whether we could install as part of a Welsh Government scheme and then land charge the house for the cost of the installation so that it's repaid on inheritance or sale, for example. So, there are things that we're working on.
But we do know that, actually, a very large part of the people who need to retrofit their homes are actually in the lower income bracket, and so this will work for that. We've been doing a lot of work with local councils right across Wales as part of our energy service to map energy maps of Wales so that we actually know where communities with high energy and low thermal efficiency are, and we can target, in an area-based solution, some of those communities as well. I'm very keen to work with people in constituencies like yours. With a row of terraced houses, for example, it may well be that there's an area solution for that that might work very well. What we'll be doing is funding—as part of our co-operation agreement, with Ynni Cymru, we'll be funding workers who will go out to help communities come together in the kind of scheme that we want them to. My colleague Jane Hutt, for example, announced some of the schemes for helping people to buy bulk oil, because if you come together you can get a much better price. That doesn't decarbonise your home, but it certainly helps with your fuel poverty issues. So, there are a number of complexities there.
The last piece is: on the skills point, we've had conversations with my colleague here Jeremy Miles and with Vaughan Gething. Much of what we did in the optimised retrofit programme was a skills-based exercise to figure out, actually, what are the skills necessary: is it just retooling your plumber or, actually, are you looking at a different kind of tradesperson, who needs both electricity and plumbing capability? That's quite common for some of these systems. We've been working with the further education colleges and with our construction forum. Vaughan Gething, Lee Waters and I run a—I think it's once a quarter—construction forum, where we talk to the small and medium-sized enterprises and companies around Wales about how to get a training plan together for their existing workforce, because about 60 per cent of the existing workforce will require to be retrained at some point over the next 10 years. So, we do look very carefully at the skills plan as well.
Lastly, looping right back to the advice, part of the reason we want to put the advice in place is because, actually, finding the right craftsperson and avoiding people who are giving you duff advice is one of the biggest reasons that people don't go ahead.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister, and I too give a very warm welcome to this statement; there's so much in here and it's really brilliant to see it. I just really wanted to raise the issue of timescales. In your statement, you say that there'll be a heat strategy this year, and I just wondered if you could just tell us a little bit more about when that will happen, but also, fundamentally, when we will see a roll-out of the programme—that is, when households can actually see the opportunity to have these schemes delivered.
We know that it will take 134 years under the current Nest scheme to insulate every house in Wales and that almost 200 people in Wales have died, according to Climate Cymru, as a result of living in cold, damp and really badly heated homes. This is very urgent, so I'd be interested to hear timescales, if I may, from you, Minister. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie James AC: Yes, diolch, Jane. I absolutely understand the need for the urgency, but we also have to get it right. As many people have said, it's important to get the right solution for the right house as well. We've extended the Nest programme through next winter, just to make sure there's no gap, but I am very much hopeful that we will get this programme up and running towards the beginning of next winter. That's what we're currently aiming for, but we have made sure that the Nest programme continues, just to make sure there isn't a gap.
Just to say—with apologies to Mabon, because I have obviously not turned the right page in my brief here—the Warm Homes programme, from 2010 to the end of March 2022, we spent £420 million and improved homes for 73,000 lower income households. So, it's quite substantial already, but, you're absolutely right, a lot more needs to be done.
This is a different approach, as you've heard me saying to others, so it's a much more holistic approach. We're also encouraging people to come together with neighbours to make the best use of south-facing rooms and ground-source heat pump type arrangements where not every single house would be able to support that, but the energy produced is sufficient for a number and, if you combine together, you can get the investment. So, we're very keen to help people come together in that way to have community solutions. We're very good at community solutions in Wales, and we've been working with a number of local authorities—Cardiff, in particular, comes to mind—on finding energy solutions for a number of homes. Mike will be very well aware of the one in his constituency that I've visited on a number of occasions. So, this is pretty innovative stuff.
One of the big issues for us will be to make sure that we get that initial assessment of the home right, and then we get the thermal insulation right as well as the heating system. As I say, for some homes, actually, just making sure that their current gas boiler is as efficient as possible while insulating their home will be a meanwhile solution, and, for others, it will require a complete retrofit.

Sioned Williams MS: Like fellow Members, I've been waiting eagerly and waiting far too long for this statement on the Government's next Warm Homes programme. So, I'm grateful to have this brief opportunity—it's a shame that we don't have more time to discuss this important programme; we have a minute each, but we do have questions that still need answering. There is much to be welcomed here, certainly, including a focus on supporting those least able to pay and that those measures will go deeper for them. But, in terms of qualification for this, what is the definition of the income level threshold? Will there be factors other than income considered as part of this picture—the number of people living in the property, local factors, disabilities, health conditions and so on?
It's good to hear that the property budget is to be increased, but what will be the level of the cap on every property? And the big question, and we've heard you talk a fair bit about it today, again, in unspecific terms, generally, is when. The head of Wales National Energy Action, Ben Saltmarsh, has said that it's crucial that the programme is in place for this winter, so is that timetable—the beginning of winter, does that mean November 2023?

Julie James AC: Thanks, Sioned. I don't disagree with much of what you've said there. I can't honestly tell you whether it will be November, because we're in the process of doing the procurement at the moment, and, I'm afraid, 'It depends,' turns out to be the answer for much of that. So, if the procurement goes smoothly, there will be no problem for the beginning of winter; if there are hitches along the way, it might well be into December. That's why we've extended the Nest programme to make sure there's no gap in provision.
This is a different kind of programme. It's very difficult to answer the question, 'What does "low income" mean?', because it also depends on how the fuel poverty calculator works. Basically, it's not means tested, so you'll be in a house that's EPC E, unless you've got health conditions, in which case Ds will be included. We will include people in D as gap fillers, if you like, because we want the programme to run seamlessly, so they'll be put on a waiting or a reserved list, and then, frankly, we're going to see how that works, because it's really difficult to gauge how many people are in fuel poverty. It's not an absolute measure, is it? It's about whether you spend more than 45 per cent of your income on fuel, and people with quite high incomes do that in some circumstances. So, we'll be working on that with all of that with all of you and looking at communities that we know have those kinds of issues in them. So, I'm not trying to dodge the question—it's a very good one—but I think I'll have to come back to the Senedd when we're through the procurement, at the other end, just to tell you exactly what the calibration is, because we've asked our partners that we're procuring it through to give us an indication of how they would do it, because we want it to be as wide a procurement as possible.
I want it to benefit as many households as we can in that holistic way, as well, and that's a hard judgment, isn't it, because we've been putting, under the Nest programme, efficient gas boilers in. That makes quite a big difference to people's homes. But, of course, it doesn't particularly make them energy efficient unless you do the other actions as well, and that's why we've opened this programme to people who've already had something done for them. So, if you did have an energy-efficient gas boiler put in under a previous programme, but, actually, what you really need is proper insulation, then you'll be able to reapply, because that will get you perhaps out of the same thing. So, if you're still in fuel poverty, and you've had that intervention already, you'll be able to reapply, because we know that not everybody got out of fuel poverty as a result of that first intervention, although it will have made them lower down on the scale.
So, I'm afraid it's really difficult to to answer the very good questions you've asked me until we're bit further into the programme, but, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm more than happy to come back in early autumn and give an answer to some of those when we've been through the experience.

Hefin David can now ask his question.

Hefin David AC: Thank you. In the debate last week, we asked for more detail, and, goodness me, we got more detail, which is really important and very welcome, but it does make it harder to choose a question.
Mabon mentioned the fact that Pred and I went to Friends of the Earth with Councilor Shayne Cook, the council member for housing from Caerphilly council last week, and it was a very good meeting, with lots of questions, which, actually, you've answered partly in your statement and partly in responses in the Chamber. Pred and I did a bit of a double act. It was actually quite good fun, wasn't it, Pred?
So, the issue that I would like to follow up on is: the exemplar in my constituency is Lansbury Park, where, under Arbed, there were a number of houses that were completed, but a number of them that weren't, and my concern—. You've mentioned flats that will be done as a collective; what about those housing estates that are now mixed economy, with some council housing, some housing association, some privately owned—how do you ensure that there isn't a degree of inequality that happens across those kinds of housing estates?

Julie James AC: So, this programme will be deliberately aimed at that kind of community solution. So, assuming that we can help the community to come together in a mutually agreed solution—I mean, that's easy to say, but it can be hard to do, but assuming that—. And we would not be exempting a community because some of the people in the community don't meet the eligibility criteria because their income is higher and they're not strictly in fuel poverty. As long as a number of the people in that community would benefit and there's a good low-carbon energy efficiency solution that could be rolled out across the community—. And we're very keen on that part of it, and the example in Penderi in Mike's patch is a really good one, and, actually, Hefin, it would be worth you going down to visit it, because you'll be able to see how that works in action. So, that's an old social housing estate, with lots of private ownership in it now, through the right-to-buy scheme and so on, and a new housing estate right beside it coming together for an energy solution. So, it kind of comes off what you're asking.

And finally, Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I very much welcome the statement from the Minister. Everyone needs and deserves a warm home. A cold home has a serious effect on health and, for children, can cause underperformance in school. I welcome that all households in Wales have access to the Warm Homes programme for advice and support on how best to improve the energy efficiency of their home. Does the Minister agree that, for a lot of people, all they need is advice? It is important that a low-income threshold is set, rather than basing eligibility solely on means-tested benefits, which excludes those with income just above the benefits threshold, and some of those can be in greater need.
Something that will benefit many in my constituency is that households will no longer be limited to single applications. Will it able to fund rectifying problems from previous work done, such as the inappropriate cavity wall insulation that has affected the constituents of many Members here? Is there a limit on the number of times a household can apply? How would it work for privately rented housing? And finally, it's Pobl in Swansea that did the work.

Julie James AC: Yes, thank you, Mike. I knew it was Pobl. It's a very good scheme and, actually, they're very proud of it, so, if Members do want to visit, it is actually worth visiting. It does give you some real big ideas about what is possible; they've really worked hard with the community there.
So, yes, Mike, I think the answer is 'yes' to pretty much every one of your questions there. So, we are definitely not means-testing it; it is definitely for people who are just above the benefits threshold, and actually others who might be a little way above it, because they're in fuel poverty and in a very inefficient home. We definitely have a community solution and you can definitely apply more than once. So, I'm very pleased to say that I think it's a positive response to all of your questions. Diolch.

Thank you, Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language: Establishment of the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research

Item 4 this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, the establishment of the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research, and I call on the Minister to make the statement—Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased to confirm that the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research will be established this September, before becoming operational next April. The principal aim of establishing the commission is to create an independent body able to deal with strategic planning and funding across the whole of the tertiary education and research sectors in Wales, with a key focus on learner and career pathways.
This Government is committed to progressing our programme of education reform, and doing all that we can to ensure that educational inequalities narrow and that standards rise. Having all aspects of tertiary education and research under one body is a vital step in that direction.
The commission will have a leading role in improving all aspects of well-being for current and future generations, and it will be empowered to ensure that the tertiary education sector is organised in a way that meet the needs of learners, the economy, employers and the entire nation. The strategic duties are vital in setting out our vision for the sector, as well as our statement of priorities, which I intend to publish towards the end of this year. The work on developing the statement will continue over the coming months, and I will give consideration to the views of stakeholders, the sector, the commission, and, of course, my Cabinet colleagues and Members of the Senedd.

Jeremy Miles AC: As Members will be aware, I have appointed Simon Pirotte as the first chief executive officer of the commission. Simon’s appointment has been warmly welcomed across the sector and endorsed by the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Simon will take up his post this September for a term of two years. Simon is currently principal and chief executive of Bridgend College, and has worked in the education sector for over 30 years, with experience in higher education, further education and school sectors in Wales, England and the USA. I am confident that the combination of Professor Dame Julie Lydon as chair, Professor David Sweeney as deputy chair, and Simon Pirotte as CEO, provides a team with wide-ranging leadership experience and knowledge, who can lead the new commission in delivering our innovative and ambitious vision for Wales’s tertiary education and research sector.
Turning to the appointment of the ordinary board members of the commission, who will take up their posts in September, we received a total of 108 applications for these roles, which I consider highlights the support and enthusiasm from across the sector for the commission. These applications included a number of Welsh speakers, or individuals with experience of providing or promoting education or training through the medium of Welsh. Promoting Welsh-medium tertiary education is one of the commission’s strategic duties, and I have formally designated the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol to advise the commission on the discharge of that duty. This will enable the commission to benefit from the coleg’s existing networks and wealth of experience in developing and supporting Welsh-medium tertiary education.
Tomorrow, I will launch a consultation seeking stakeholders' views on the list of trade unions and learner representation bodies that may nominate individuals for the purpose of appointing the associate members of the commission. I intend to appoint the associate members by April 2024, so as to input to the commission as soon as it is operational. These members will play a key role, ensuring democratic input into the commission’s decision-making through a social partnership arrangement, and helping ensure that the learner voice is heard at the board level and guides those decisions.
The Act includes a number of reforms that will directly deliver improvements for learners. These include the learner engagement code, and provisions in respect of staff and student welfare, thereby placing learners at the heart of the reforms we are seeking to deliver through the commission.

Jeremy Miles AC: In relation to implementing the Act more widely, there will also be a series of other consultations over the coming months, which will be managed carefully so as to avoid undue burden on the sector. I am writing to the Children, Young People and Education Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee this week, setting out further details of the planned regulations and consultations that will support the implementation of this Act.
In the autumn, we will consult on the draft regulations that are necessary to support the process of implementing the register of tertiary education providers. I will also be making a commencement Order over the summer, which will include provisions bringing certain functions within the Act partially into force, so as to enable the commission to undertake preparatory activities over the autumn and winter, to support the implementation of key functions.
Dirprwy Lywydd, this is an ambitious Act that delivers wide-ranging reforms, putting learners at the centre of a tertiary education sector that serves the needs of people of all ages and with different interests, competencies, needs and aspirations. I am proud of the progress we have made in implementing the Act and establishing the commission, and I am grateful for the support and engagement that I and my officials have had from across the sector and the Senedd.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister. Throughout the scrutiny of the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill, the Welsh Conservatives argued and attempted to pass amendments on the real need for the commission and the Welsh Government to be, of course, at arm's length from each other. I also said I'd be keeping an eye on how much influence Ministers exercise over the commission in order to make certain that its independence and autonomy are not compromised as it discharges its duties. Yet here we are, unfortunately, with question marks looming over just how the chairman was selected, leading to obvious questions, which were from across the political spectrum within my children and young people's committee, about how close the Minister was to the appointment of the new chair, after the panel, of course, failed to appoint a candidate as part of the recruitment process from November 2022 to February 2023.
The new chair, although very personable and very talented in many ways, admitted to not having the experience of handling a budget as sizeable as what the tertiary education commission will have access to, which is an estimated £800 million per year—greater than any other Welsh public body outside the Welsh NHS. I stressed during the scrutiny of this Bill that proper financial responsibility surely must be demonstrated. So, Minister, my first question is: what assurances are there that the budgets will have proper oversight with experienced hands?
The CYPE committee noted, at the appointment of the chair and deputy chair, their disappointment that the mix of backgrounds of the two appointments does not give effect to the breadth of the sector. I was disappointed with the process that was followed for these appointments. This is an incredibly important commission, which will be responsible for ensuring the bold ambitions set out to be delivered on, and it's crucial that all parts of the commission don't miss out on funding, like, perhaps, sixth-form colleges, due to the lack of experience of the appointments in this regard. So, Minister, with the chair and deputy chair not having enough experience covering the whole breadth of the people that will be in the commission, what assurances can you give the sector that the commission contains the needed experience and does not affect the breadth of that sector?
And, finally, on our research and development, research and innovation in Wales, which is in need of some serious support, funding and strategy, it is something that has been severely lacking in Wales, and something that Welsh institutions have been crying out for. During the Committee Stage, the new chairman said:
'I think, probably, the area that is more of a blind spot for me would be around research'.
So, how can we be sure that the commission will give the proper attention, funding and leadership needed to drive that R&D sector to make sure it thrives? And don't you agree that it's absolutely essential that R&D forms a heavy and significant part of the commission's work going forward, for the benefits to Wales that it would, of course, bring?
And, finally, may I just wish the commission every success going forward, because what lies before them is an incredibly important task?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for those questions, and I'm sure the commission will welcome that closing sentiment from the education spokesperson for the Conservatives.
I'm not sure I fully followed the argument in the question. The Member referred to the appointment of the chair on several occasions. I wasn't sure whether she meant the chief executive officer or the chair. In any event, the committee itself was keen to make sure that there was a good mix of experience covering higher education, further education and research amongst the leadership team at the commission. And I am absolutely confident that the experience of the deputy chair, with a particular focus on research, which was the point that she emphasised was absolutely crucial, and with which I agree—his experience in the research community is unparalleled. And the experience of further education is absolutely front and centre in the appointment of the chief executive officer, who has a substantial track record of success in the further education sector in Wales, as a leader who is creative and collaborative, which is exactly the kind of person that we need to be the chief executive officer of the new organisation.
She's right to say that there are significant budgetary responsibilities that the commission will discharge. That's at the very heart of why we are setting it up at arm's length in the way that we are, and she will know that, during the course of the passage of the Act, I have answered a number of questions in relation to this. But I'm fully confident that, with the leadership team that we have in place, together with the real interest that we have received from right across the sector for positions on the board, we can be fully confident that matters in relation to audit, financial management, and so on, will be fully discharged by the leadership of the new organisation.

Sioned Williams MS: I’d like to declare an interest that my husband is employed by Swansea University.
Thank you for the statement, Minister. It is a cause of joy; it’s been a long journey to get us to this point, given that Professor Hazelkorn was asked to conduct a review of post-statutory education and training back in 2016. And we in Plaid Cymru were proud that the steps to establish the commission through legislation were part of the co-operation agreement with the Government. We look forward to seeing the commission beginning its work, and that that vision of developing and supporting provision of a global standard, which meets the needs of all learners in an integrated and bold way, is progressing.
Like Laura Anne Jones, I’m also a member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, and therefore had an opportunity to be part of the pre-appointment hearings for the chair, the vice-chair and, at the end of last month, the chief executive. We have raised some questions in our report on the process for the appointment of the chief executive for this very important Welsh body, which will be second only to the Welsh NHS in terms of the scale of its budget. These questions in no way impute the appropriateness of the new chief executive, or his ability, but consider the process for this key appointment. We expressed our disappointment with the process that the open recruitment process wasn’t reopened, and that the candidate who was appointed didn't have a formal interview or the other elements that were part of the open process, such as a psychological assessment, psychometric testing, an engagement event with stakeholders, and a requirement to prepare a presentation. In your response to the committee, you draw attention to the fact that this wasn’t a public appointment and to the challenging timetable in terms of the establishment of the commission. But I would like to ask you, Minister, whether you agree, in this case, that the process for appointment was sub-optimal, and do you agree that ministerial appointments, like public appointments, should follow robust, fair and transparent processes?
To turn now to the functions of the commission, I would like a little more clarity from the Minister in terms of the vision for the higher education sector and the development of a strategy for that, as the commission starts its work. What is your vision in terms of the collaboration and partnership between the commission and HE organisations in Wales that’s required, in order to draw up that strategy and to implement it?
I’d also like to mention the focus on research within the commission. Apart from appearing in the title of the body and that it’s one of the statutory duties of the body, research clearly will be not as much of an area of focus and funding as compared to all the other functions that the commission will be responsible for. But it’s crucially important, isn't it, if Wales is serious in terms of being a nation that makes decisions and operates on the basis of Welsh research. And with the lack of European Union structural funds, research within HE in Wales is experiencing huge and dangerous cuts at the moment, at a time when the sector needs to be so competitive and as agile as possible in order to secure funding through UK Research and Innovation. So, there is a great need for clarity and direction for the next few years, and the HE sector in Wales needs to be a good place to be a researcher. So, what is your vision in terms of how the commission should deliver that?
And finally, Plaid Cymru warmly welcomes your confirmation this afternoon of the designation of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol to advise the commission on its duty to promote Welsh-medium tertiary education, acknowledging the crucial role of the coleg in the Welsh Government’s Welsh language strategy. It's crucial now that the commission does commit to this crucial relationship in order to meet its statutory duties in terms of the Welsh language, to promote and encourage demand for Welsh-medium education in the post-16 setting, and not just meet that demand. Do you agree, Minister, that this opportunity to extend Welsh-medium education provision and bilingual provision should be taken forward to its fullest extent? What is your view in terms of the opportunities to do this, and will you ensure that Welsh-speaking members, who have experience of Welsh and bilingual education, will be appointed to the board? It's good to know that many have applied for those roles, because we believe that that is crucially important in order to deliver this.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for those questions. I will try my best to answer them as fully as possible. In terms of the appointment of the CEO, just to be clear, in terms of process, a stage was added to the process this time in order to ensure the fairness and transparency that the Member says is so important—and I do agree with her that those principles are important, and certainly, I think that they were delivered in this case. But a stage was added this time, so that the committee did have an opportunity to have that discussion that they wouldn't have had otherwise. So, this is an example of taking a specific step to ensure that that process can be public and transparent. I read the committee's report and, with all due respect, I disagree with the findings, or the conclusion in that sense, but I am pleased to see that the committee does confirm that the CEO has very appropriate skills and experience for this post.
The committee has encouraged me to look at the broader talent market, if you like. That was done. And the committee has asked to ensure that the appointment does reflect a range of skills, including skills in the FE sector. That was done. And the committee asked us to ensure that we did press ahead with the process of establishing the commission, so that that happened in a way that was timely and could ensure that the benefits of the Act could be delivered as soon as possible. That was done. And the committee has consistently asked me to ensure that I reflect the concerns and the priorities of the sector and stakeholders in establishing the commission, and the response from the sector in terms of giving the appointment a general welcome shows clearly that that was done as well. So, I'm very happy that the process was appropriate and fair and transparent, and that the appointment is very worthy.
In terms of the other questions, the establishment of a commission ensures that we do have an arm's-length body from the Government that is going to do its work. I will make a statement at the end of the year in terms of the priorities that I have, as a Minister, for the commission, so that the commission can take full consideration of those as it presses ahead with its work.
The Member asked me how I would like to see the commission operating with the sector, and it's a good point. The discussion during the passage of the Act has often focused on how we want to see the sector working together. I'd like to see the same values in place between the commission and the sector itself—that is, working in a creative way, that is co-operative and that ensures that co-production happens when that's possible. These are issues for the commission ultimately, but I do think that those are good ways of ensuring that we do have a sector that can respond quickly to developments and ensure the interests of the students and the economy.
She's right to say that research is important. She said that other than it being in the name of the organisation and other than the structure dealing with this—. Well, I would suggest that those are very strong indications of how central support for research is within the remit of the commission, and that's why I am very pleased with the appointment of the vice-chair, who has a very strong track record in this area, and I'm sure that he will be able to do what we all want to see, namely support the universities to be competitive, and to ensure that the basis they have for competing within the UK, but internationally as well, is as robust as it can be.
The final point that the Member raised was about the Welsh language, and I do entirely agree with her that there will be great opportunities to extend post-16 provision. The work of the coleg is something that we all recognise leads and is in the vanguard on this. There is a statutory duty for the commission in this regard, and I'll want to ensure that the board will also bring that talent and experience to the vanguard so that we have a good opportunity to ensure that the Welsh language is mainstreamed in the work of the commission.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Can I just begin my brief comments by welcoming strongly the appointment of Simon Pirotte as CEO? Although, I've got to say that Sarah Murphy, my neighbouring MS, and I will miss his contribution very deeply to Bridgend College, because as a leader, he's not only been dynamic and vigorous and driven, but—unusual adjectives, perhaps, to apply to the leader of a college—he's been compassionate and value driven in what he's tried to do with that institution as well. But I think he'll be excellent within the role. We are blessed; we've got deputy principal, Viv Buckley, stepping in as interim leader for a while, and she is herself a force of nature as well, so we are doubly blessed.
Could I ask, though, for an update on the progress towards the commission's strategic duty on lifelong learning, which, as many people have said, should be right at the heart of the commission's work? It's crucial that, right across life's long trajectory, we make sure that access to education—quality education—is available for everybody. So, what progress are we making on that, on discharging that duty and delivering outcomes that can be measured tangibly?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for that question. Just to say, I think the qualities that Huw set out in the start of his question are exactly why Simon's appointment has been so widely welcomed. The duty in relation to lifelong learning is, of course, essential. We all want Wales to be the nation of second chances, where it's never too late to learn, and so the first statutory duty on the face of the Act for the commission is the duty to promote lifelong learning. This builds on a lot of work that, obviously, we've been doing outside the legislation in relation to extra funding for adult community learning, extra funding for the personal learning accounts, and a range of other initiatives. But I think the next stage in that development now is what the commission will be needing to take forward.
From our point of view, he will remember that the legislation contains a regulation-making power so that Ministers can stipulate how wide the duty to fund extends, effectively, and that is the mechanism, which he will recall, for expanding the provision of lifelong learning on a statutory basis, which we've never done before. This is new statutory ground for us in Wales. We're working at the moment with stakeholders to explore how we can best shape that duty, and there are choices. There's a depth question and there's a breadth question, and they're obviously trade-offs, to some extent, aren't they? I'm really keen to make sure that we engage stakeholders and get the full range of voices before I make the decision around that mix, if you like. But my intention is that by the start of next year, we'll be consulting on the regulations that will set out the scope of that duty in law, which will really then put the meat on the bones, which is in legislation, but it's a really important next step for us.

And finally, Hefin David.

Hefin David AC: Thank you, Deputy Llywydd. Like Sioned Williams, I would also like to welcome the role of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol as an adviser to CTER.

Hefin David AC: Can I also ask—? If the body is going to be truly successful, then all of the stakeholders that lie beneath that, in secondary, tertiary and higher education and associated employers and trade unions need to work together to create that seamless transition, and if that is going to be successful, it might need a culture change in many parts of those sectors.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Hefin David for the point he's just made. He will recall that, during the passage of the Bill, not least because he, in his work as chair of the cross-party group on universities, chaired more than one session on this. One of them, I was able to attend myself, and I think he would agree with me that there is a high level of appetite for working together in collaboration across the sector in relation to this, but there are some barriers, which the legislation is intending to put right, not least the question of funding barriers. When you're funded by more than one separate entity—which has been the case, is still the case, and will be the case until the commission's work starts—that creates its own challenges to fully collaborative working. But I'm very encouraged, actually, that, even before the commission has started its work, I feel that the passage of this legislation and the sector-wide discussion and public debate that we've had in this Chamber has begun to create a context and a culture where people are keener to collaborate.
And, only this very lunchtime, I was able to speak at the launch here in the Neuadd of the University of Wales Technical Institute, which is an initiative jointly between the University of Wales Trinity Saint David, NPTC Group of Colleges, Coleg Ceredigion, Coleg Sir Gâr, Coleg Sir Benfro and Cardiff and the Vale College, focusing on delivering higher level technical skills to our young people. And there is a range of other models for collaboration that is being actively explored, and I think having different approaches will be good, because we can all learn from the things that work best from that. But my principle hope for the change that the Bill will bring into effect is to ensure that institutions collaborate fully in order to make real that commitment that we all have here to put learners at the very heart of all our post-16 provision.

Thank you, Minister.

5. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services: National measures to strengthen social care

Item 5 is next, a statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services on national measures to strengthen social care. I call on the Deputy Minister, Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today, I'm giving an update on measures that will strengthen the provision of social care services in Wales. These include both immediate actions and longer term strategic initiatives. Members will recall that, last month, I launched a formal consultation on the rebalancing care and support programme. This consultation builds on outline proposals in the 2021 White Paper of the same name by setting out intended actions on a range of areas.
While officials have already carried out a range of engagements with partners on the specific proposals within the consultation, we will also engage broadly during the 12-week consultation period. Collectively, the proposals on the national framework and the national office, supported by the other initiatives within the consultation, will be amongst the first important building blocks of a national care service—a key commitment in the co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru. These proposals we are consulting on in rebalancing care and support complement the findings of the expert group established to make recommendations about the steps towards creating a national care service. Their report, entitled 'Towards a National Care and Support Service for Wales', is a comprehensive account of the challenges and opportunities facing the sector, addressing the terms of reference, and also demonstrating the depth and breadth of the discussions and deliberations of the group. So, on behalf of the Minister for Health and Social Services and the designated Member, Cefin Campbell MS, I'd once again like to express our thanks to the joint co-chairs and all the members of the expert group for their contributions to this crucial and challenging work, recognising that commitment went far beyond what was envisaged at the outset.
We were very pleased to read how a number of the expert group's recommendations align with our current programme for government commitment for the reform of the social care sector. This means that we can move forward confidently in developing stronger national support for the sector. Our proposed actions in the rebalancing care and support consultation include the development of a statutory national commissioning framework; the establishment of a national office for care and support; the social care fair work forum's development of a national pay and progression framework; close work with local authorities on a national performance and improvement data set; and strengthening of arrangements for regional partnership working across health and social care. These actions together constitute a significant strengthening of the national arrangements for care and support, and will therefore form a substantial part of the forthcoming implementation plan for a national care and support service.
Now, in a sector where approximately 90 per cent of the providers are in the independent sector, the development of a statutory national commissioning framework will guide a focus on quality supported by fair fees for the cost of care. There will be a shift from complexity of commissioning arrangementstowards simplicity based on shared principles. It will encourage a move from task-based practice towards outcome-based practice. The commissioning framework will also be a dynamic tool, capable of being updated with evidence-based service model specifications.
The national office will enable a focus on the improvement and transformation of adult and children’s services and build on progress already made in improving social care data, developing a clearer picture of the delivery of services, and thus enabling benchmarking and service improvement. It will also support the chief social care officer as a stronger voice for the sector, and be the platform upon which other elements of the national care and support service are built through the successive stages of implementation planning.
Joint working with the NHS Executive will be essential to ensure consistent direction is given to a health and social care system that we are driving towards further integration.
The pay and progression framework further demonstrates our commitment to the social care workforce, whichever part of the sector they may be employed in. The Welsh Government has prioritised social care, and we have invested in it, including through ensuring that every social care worker is paid at least at the level of the real living wage. Whilst independent organisations are responsible for their own employment practice, the new framework, which was developed in social partnership by the social care fair work forum, begins to set expectations about how our skilled and committed workforce should be recognised nationally.
In response to the earlier White Paper consultation, we listened to statutory organisations who did not want the legal structure of regional partnership boards to change. Over the last two years, we've worked with partners to clarify and strengthen governance, accountability, planning and citizens' voice. In working closely with the sector to develop these measures, I look forward to the difference they will make in further integrating health and social care services.
All these developments are aligned to the recent statement made by the Minister for Health and Social Services on 'Building Capacity through Community Care—Further Faster'. Through this initiative, we aim to work with our local government and NHS partners to strengthen the capacity of health and social care services in the community. This work consists of a range of immediate actions to make a measurable difference to community care services ahead of the coming winter, combined with a longer term aim of strengthening community provision more broadly. The principles of a joined-up, preventative and community-centred system, supported by 'Further Faster' are in line with those we would expect to see within a national care service.
We will give a further update on progress with social care developments and steps towards a national care service in the coming weeks. Diolch.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much for your statement this afternoon, Deputy Minister, on the national measures to strengthen social services across Wales. Where I support and largely agree with the content of your statement this afternoon, Deputy Minister, I must say that it's a fairly broad-brush and warm-worded approach to tackling some of the major, acute and specific factors facing the social services sector post COVID and in a twenty-first century Wales.
Now, the reason I say this is that there are many facets to health and social care services that need addressing that the Government haven't covered in their statement today. One example of that that would need to be incorporated in the alignment of the two sectors, one of those, is children's services, and what we haven't seen, and what we've spoken about many times in this Senedd Chamber, myself and colleagues, is the Welsh Government's failure to commission a specific laser focus on reviewing all of the children's services across Wales, giving all 22 local authorities the opportunity to review their practices to make sure that the fewest amount of children possible slip through the net and ensure their safety. I make particular references to the victims of child neglect and murder, including Logan Mwangi and Kaylea Titford, to name just two examples of this, as evidence suggests that a children's review may have indeed been a more preventative measure in their cases, and preventing the possibility of more in the future in a way that wouldn't be detrimental to the Government's ambition of future integration, and be delivered in a capacity that would span many professions that cover the holistic package that vulnerable children receive through their developmental journey, sometimes with the assistance and expertise of health and social care providers.
Now, aside from children's services, and despite the Welsh Government's commitment to increasing the real living wage for social care workers, which we on the Welsh Conservative benches have supported, and continue to, and indeed as well the further integration of health and social care services, the sector still faces a recruitment crisis, with an ongoing struggle to recruit candidates into social care, in particular in our care homes, which is having a knock-on effect on hospital discharges, waiting lists, ambulance response times and A&E, as the health and social care sectors are intrinsically linked. So, therefore, Deputy Minister, what assurances can you provide in response to your statement today that the adequate amount of training opportunities, career pathways and glass ceilings can be broken to attract aspiring social care workers into the sector? And what commitment can you give to social care employers and care home owners that the Welsh Government can maximise its devolved powers to local authorities, so that every Government decision on the social care sector is felt on the ground across Wales, and not just in the Cardiff bay bubble?
Now, staying on the theme of Government decisions being felt on the ground, how robust are the Government and co-operation agreement's ambitions for further integration to the possibility of future political change and differences? And the reason for asking this is the bare reality that the Welsh Government doesn't command a majority in this Senedd Chamber and has to rely on Plaid Cymru support, which itself has been a recent merry-go-round in leaders and interims, which will no doubt be seen as a threat in the relevant sectors to achieving some of the Government's aims and objectives. So, what assurances can you give, Deputy Minister, that the plans for integration and the correct levels of tools and resources are futureproofed and robust to the possibility of future changes, as you will no doubt accept this is a sector that affects people's lives day in, day out? So, have you given due diligence to this reality?
And can the Deputy Minister elaborate further on the establishment of a national office for care and support? What will the office look like? Will there be a board? How many staff will it employ, and will the funding of this present the risk of resources being soaked up by the office itself rather than the intention of creating integration? And what checks and balances will you use to monitor this?
Finally, Deputy Minister, can you provide some further clarity on distinguishing the difference between close work with local authorities and strengthening of arrangements for regional partnership working, as the two seem to contradict each other, given the Welsh Government's ambition to create corporate joint committees, CJCs? And what would be the consequence of CJCs on the social care services if they are indeed delivered?
Thank you very much again for your statement this afternoon, Deputy Minister, and I look forward to your response. Diolch.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Gareth, for welcoming most of the statement and for your support in general. You say that this is a broad brush. I think that you will be aware that, in the Minister's statement fairly recently on 'Further Faster', we did go into a lot of detail about how we would be working on the ground in order to tackle the issues that have arisen in social care. So, the points that I've been making in the statement today are linked to the consultation that we're having with the community, which is ongoing, about all these proposals that, actually, have been in discussion for quite a number of years.
In terms of the children's services, the national office and the commissioning framework will cover adult and children's services. So, what I've talked about today is relevant to children. In terms of reviewing children's services, there's recently been a joint review carried out by the inspection agencies looking specifically at child protection issues in a number of local authorities, which I'm sure the Member will be interested to read. And I am sure he is also aware that we are carrying out numerous reviews as a result of some of the very tragic child protection cases that have arisen recently. So, we are looking very deeply at all these areas, and obviously take our responsibilities very seriously.
The real living wage—yes, I'm very proud that we brought in the real living wage. I think it's absolutely excellent—£70 million this year to ensure that some of our lowest-paid workers actually have got a rise, and it's been very much appreciated by the workforce. There is a problem with recruitment and retention, and we are doing all we possibly can to ensure the career prospects of people who are in the field. One of the things we are doing is we are providing initial online training and also working to advertise the great advantages of working in this field through the WeCare Wales promotion, and obviously working very closely with social care. Because the Member’s absolutely right—there is a key issue of retention, and that is one of the things that we are addressing. And of course, I’m sure he is aware that we have a great deal of support from Care Forum Wales, which, as you know, is the organisation that works with the private providers, who are very complimentary about what the Welsh Government has done to support the care home sector in particular. We really went out of our way during the pandemic to do all we possibly could, and as a result very few care homes in Wales have closed as a result of the pandemic and all the pressures that there have been there, whereas there have been a lot more over the border.
And then what assurances that plans for integration will continue? We’ve based our plans for the future on the proposals from the expert group, which was set up jointly by Plaid Cymru and the Government, and what we’re planning to do is based on what the expert group put forward to us. As I say, fortunately, a lot of it aligned with things that we had been thinking of doing before in any case, such as the national office and the national framework.
The national office will be set up as a unit within the Government. This is something that we did consult on a couple of years ago, and there was no appetite for setting up a separate body, because there would be a degree of flexibility in setting it up within the Government as well as making the maximum use of resources. So, the national office, we hope, will be up and running by next year.
And then of course close working with the local authorities and the health boards—a lot of that work is done in the RPBs, the regional partnership boards, which were specifically set up in order to bring health and social care together, and they are strengthening as they develop, and as part of these proposals we are proposing to strengthen them further. So, that’s where we see one of the key areas where integration is taking place in terms of policy development, and of course in the work on the ground in teams that are made up of social and health care workers, and other disciplines.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for this afternoon's statement, Deputy Minister.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: We welcome today's update on the development of a national care service for Wales, a truly revolutionary Plaid Cymru manifesto commitment that is being delivered through our co-operation agreement with the Welsh Government. Once again we see that, when Plaid Cymru has an influence on the programme of government, Wales wins. With our ageing population and acute pressures on our beleaguered NHS, the need for a national care service has never been greater, and it is encouraging in this respect that the report and recommendations of the expert group very much align with our radical vision for reform in this sector.
Turning to the specific actions arising from the rebalancing care and support consultation, can I ask you, Deputy Minister, for further details on the relevant timescales for introducing the statutory national commissioning framework? It’s also appropriate that the framework in question will seek to precipitate a shift towards outcome-based approaches amongst providers, underpinned by a set of common, shared principles. Can I ask whether the Minister could elaborate on the relevant metrics or criteria that will inform how these outcomes are assessed? It’s also entirely right that this programme of work will seek to entrench fair work and fair pay practices amongst employers, building on the Government’s prior commitment to ensure that all social care workers are paid at least the real living wage. However, we should also acknowledge the enormous and vital contribution of unpaid carers to the provision of social care in Wales. The last census revealed that there are 310,751 such carers in Wales, of which 107,000 provide 50 or more hours of unpaid care a week. Can I ask the Deputy Minister to explain how the national care service will help to ease the burden on unpaid carers and whether their invaluable expertise and experience could help to inform the design of the care service?
In a few weeks' time, the NHS will mark its seventy-fifth anniversary. Its establishment was the defining moment of post-war British political history and a towering legacy of democratic socialism in action. We also confront the healthcare challenges of the twenty-first century. We need to channel the same sense of radicalism, vision and ambition that characterised Nye Bevan's great project of 1948. In driving forward the plans for the establishment of a national care service, which, in turn, will secure the future of a more stable and sustainable NHS, Plaid Cymru has shown once again that we do not shy away from implementing far-reaching and transformational solutions for Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Julie Morgan AC: Diolch, and thank you very much for welcoming the statement today. I am very appreciative of the work that we've been able to do with Plaid Cymru to take this forward, because I think, as the Member said in his contribution, never is it more needed to have a radical way of tackling the difficulties of social care. The Member referred to an ageing population, and I think it's very important that anything we do, while recognising the additional needs that may be there, is recognising the contribution of older people to society as well.
The timescales: well, the first thing we will do is set up the national office, because, obviously, we need the national office there to drive forward these changes. The aim is to get the national office up and running by the beginning of next year, and then the framework will follow on from that. We do want to shift towards seeing what the outcomes are and to measure those outcomes. By having a national framework, we will be able to—. With the contracts, for example, that are with the care homes, we won't have a myriad different contracts individually negotiated with hundreds of separate small private businesses. We hope that we'll be able to have a much more unified approach when the principles will be decided on a national level, and that we will be able to move towards a national care service in that sort of way, by getting people to have similar contracts and similar shared principles. So, we see that progressing.
In terms of fair work and fair pay—absolutely crucial. We are working very closely with the social care fair work forum, which is made up of employers, trade unions and other interested parties. They advised us on bringing in the real living wage—on how to do that—and they are now looking at all of the other aspects, because, obviously, fair work goes far beyond just the money, and we want much better conditions for care workers. So, they are working on that now.
Unpaid carers: absolutely crucial and the bedrock of a social care service. I think we have moved a small way towards recognising their work, in terms of some of the small cash benefits we've been able to put forward to them and the help with respite to help them manage their daily lives and give them a bit of a break. So, I think we have been able to recognise them much more, but we now have a charter for carers and we have a ministerial advisory group, where people who work in that field and people who are unpaid carers are being drawn in to advise us on all of this work. The charter for unpaid carers will be incorporated into the regulations that will be practised by the regional partnership boards. So, we will actually get that directly arranged there, so that unpaid carers will be recognised there.
And then the NHS, 75 years, yes, a huge time for celebration, and I feel that this is a significant move that we're making with social care. As I say, these are the building blocks. We will be coming forward with the implementation plan, worked out with Plaid Cymru, in the forthcoming weeks, and I think we are making steps towards a national care service.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for her statement. I'm grateful to her also for the focus that she's brought to this area of work and to this portfolio. I think it's a very important portfolio, and it's important to have that focus. I welcome what the Minister has said this afternoon about the steps towards a national care service. It's clear to me that the mixed market in social care is not delivering for the people we represent. It's not delivering the level of care and support that are required for people. For me, when I think of a national care service, and speakers have already referred to Aneurin Bevan this afternoon, I think of a national care service that is provided by the public for the people who need that service, and I hope that the Government will be able to move in that direction.
The Minister has spoken this afternoon about the integration of services. It's clear to me that structures such as the regional partnership boards are not delivering the integration that we require. The separation of local government and the national health service in terms of the delivery of social care is not delivering for the people that we represent. If we are serious about a national care service, then we have to be serious as well about the structures that will deliver, support and sustain that service. The current fragmented nature of social services across the country will not support and sustain a national care service. We create structures to overcome the fragmentation we have without addressing the cause of the fragmentation. Perhaps, from my perspective, the best way to celebrate the legacy of Aneurin Bevan isn't simply to put in aspic something that was created three quarters of a century ago, but to look at what is required and needed for the next century.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Julie Morgan AC: I thank Alun Davies very much for that contribution. What we are trying to do through the rebalancing White Paper and the rebalancing consultation is to shift the balance away from heavy dependence on the private sector to a more balanced provision. At the moment, I think about 90 per cent of the provision is in the private sector, so we are heavily dependent on those bodies providing for our vulnerable people. So, the emphasis in what I've been saying today is to rebalance, to move towards a more mixed provision so that we're not so heavily dependent on one area. For example, we'd like to see more provision from the voluntary sector, we'd like to see more local authority provision, because, of course, there has been that big shift away from the local authorities directly providing services. So, we do want a more balanced provision.
The expert group, in its conclusions, supported social care services remaining with the local authorities, and there's never really been any query in what we've been doing about moving away from local authority provision for social care, because we do believe that it's important to deliver social care as closely to the people as we possibly can, and local authority elected bodies are close to the people and they have responsibility for many of the other areas that are so absolutely integral to social care, such as housing, for example. So, we don't have any proposals about moving social care from local authorities, but we do believe that we can build up a national social care service, and these are the building blocks that I'm announcing today.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. May I welcome this statement? It's really ambitious in terms of its reach, and I'm sure many of us would agree it's long overdue. Steve Thomas, who ran the Welsh Local Government Association, said about social care:
'I could plaster the floor of the Principality Stadium with the plans and the cunning ideas that political parties have had over the years to fix social care'.
Now many of us feel that's something that resonates, really, and I suppose my question to you is: given the real clear ambitions you have in this statement, who will be responsible, out of all of the bodies that are listed, for driving forward this agenda? Because we need urgency and pace to ensure that the people we represent, whom Alun Davies has talked about—. This is all about people, particularly in an ageing population here in Wales, and particularly in rural areas, which many of us represent. We need to see that there is delivery, and that it's accounted for. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie Morgan AC: Thanks for the question, Jane.

Julie Morgan AC: Setting up the national office is focusing a national point where we can drive forward policies. So, I see the national office bringing in the national framework and having a structure from which we can develop the national care service. But, obviously, it's all about partnership working because, just answering Alun Davies's question, I was saying about how important local authorities are, because they're closer to people, they're democratically elected, and we need to ensure that they work with us, along with the health boards. So, I see it as a partnership, moving forward, driven by the national office. And the consultation that is taking place about a national office, a national framework, it'll be very important to see what the responses are to that, mainly from people who are really involved in this. I know that those are the main responses that are coming in. And when we've had those, we will also then move on to, as I say, the implementation plan, where Labour and Plaid Cymru will work together to bring about the national care service.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your important statement today. It's really good to hear about the direction of travel in the provision of social care and the Welsh Government's continued commitment to improve this for people who give and receive care across Wales. I was pleased to hear the update about measures leading towards a national care service. I'm a big supporter of this concept, which I think is very much needed. As we celebrate the seventy-fifth anniversary of the NHS with our ageing population, this seems paramount.
However, I'd welcome an update on Welsh Government's current position around the Holtham report and the proposed social care levy. If we are to achieve a national care service that is fit for purpose and fit for the future, do we need to ask candid questions about its funding?
Secondly, as Members will be aware, this week is the start of Co-op Fortnight, and we know in the social care sector, co-operatives produce immense social value, prioritise well-being and lead to better pay and working conditions. A good example of this is the Drive Wales initiative. So, I'd like to ask what work is being done to promote the co-operative provision of social care in Wales.

Julie Morgan AC: I thank Vikki Howells very much for those questions and for her welcome for this statement today, and for her enthusiasm for a national care service. Today, I haven't touched on how we pay for care at all, and that was actually something that the expert care group didn't make any proposals about. Of course, we did think we would have proposals from the Conservative Westminster Government, and that this would all be solved on an England and Wales basis, but of course, they were dropped fairly quickly. So, in terms of how we pay for moving towards a service that is free at the point of need, I have to say that we have not come forward with any solutions about that, but part of our proposals and what we're working on with Plaid Cymruis to try to commission some specific bits of research to look at ways that we could move forward.
We did, during the last Senedd, have very intensive discussions about paying for care, and we did consider the Holtham report at that time. So, I suppose, really, the answer to her is that we will be lookingat how we're going to pay for social care, but because of the present really difficult financial situation that we're in, we can't give any commitment as to when we'll actually be able to do that. So, I think the important thing we need to do now, and we are doing, is putting in the blocks, the building blocks, so that, when the financial situation does get better in the longer term, we will be in a position to move forward when we're able.
Then, in terms of co-operatives, yes, we are working to have some—. We would very much like co-operatives to be part of our movement moving forward, and part of the rebalancing agenda, so we are moving towards that as well.

Finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. Thank you for your statement. I do hope that we're not going to be involved in redoing structures, because it seems to me that that just delays any improvements in care. I really want to see some progress in the movement of money away from secondary care, which has gobbled up all the resources up until now, and having better care in the community for those who don't need to be in hospital. I want everyone to have the opportunities that my constituent had last week, to be able to die with dignity at home, surrounded by family and by specialist nurses who knew about pain management, as well as some fantastic carers who met her every need. This isn't really about who employed these people; it's about ensuring that we have a joined-up system to enable everybody to have the choice of not having to die in hospital.
I just wanted to ask you about the information that is provided via the pathways of care delay from hospital, which is a useful document in that it sees how far we have to travel, but it's not broken down by local authority, only by health board, and it would be really useful to be able to see if it could be broken down by local authority so that we can see where the problem lies, and if the reasons for the delayed care were also highlighted by the local authority, then we'd know exactly where the bottlenecks were and would concentrate minds wonderfully on sorting them out.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Jenny, for your contribution and very important points you made. We are totally committed to putting as many resources in the community as we possibly can, so that we can prevent people going into hospital, or delay them going into hospital, and that has been a lot of the work that the Minister for health and myself have been taking forward. I'm sure you'll be aware about the launch of our Further Faster initiative, which is addressing absolutely these issues that you raise today, and that does put extra resources into the community work, and referring to the case of your constituent who was able to die peacefully at home with the support at home, some of that money particularly went towards palliative care, because people want to die at home and they should be able to, and that does mean that we have to put more money into the palliative care services. And also, of course, very important—reablement. Because, it's amazing how a small, fairly short reablement intervention can make a huge difference to people's lives and can prevent them from going into hospital, can keep them at home longer, and again that was part of the statement that the Minister made about the Further Faster initiative. So, I think, with that initiative, which we hope may become a blueprint for when we develop services then throughout Wales, that is answering what we're trying to do about increasing provision in the community.
But in terms of the data that you refer to, the quality of data is improving, and it was interesting, because last week, the Minister and I met with the local health board and a local authority in their own area to really try to dig into the issue of hospital discharge and the important role of community services, and to see how they interfaced, which was a very useful exercise. But our new pathways of care delay reporting framework is now in place, as you say, and it does provide us with an overview of delays across Wales, which can be reviewed at regional health board level as well as by individual local authority. The reporting framework is actually validated between the health board and the local authorities, to ensure that it does accurately reflect what's actually happening in the community, and this will give us much more detail than we've previously had in relation to delays and will allow us, as you said, to focus on improvements where they're needed most.

Ithank the Deputy Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: Securing greater nature, environmental and community benefits through sustainable drainage systems—Publication of the Welsh Government review and way forward

Item 6 is postponed.

7. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being: Launch of 111 press 2 for urgent mental health

Item 7 is next, a statement from the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being on the launch of '111 press 2' for urgent mental health. So, the Deputy Minister, Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm delighted to announce that our new service—NHS '111 press 2' for urgent mental health support—is now available across the whole of Wales. The new service will transform how urgent mental health support is accessed in Wales, and is available to all ages, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
This service transformation reflects our ongoing commitment to improve access to mental health support in Wales and delivers on one of our programme for government commitments to prioritise service redesign and a 'no wrong door' approach to mental health support. It also responds to recommendations in the 'Beyond the Call' review. This was commissioned by the Welsh Government and led by a multi-agency steering group to help us better understand the needs of individuals who contact emergency services with mental health concerns. The review highlighted the breadth of social and welfare needs that often sit behind a mental health crisis and the need for easy access to joined-up, multidisciplinary support.NHS '111 press 2' is a significant step towards this. It provides rapid access to advice, assessment and de-escalation from a specially trained mental health practitioner, over the phone. Where required, individuals can be seamlessly referred into specialist mental health services or to self–help support. As the service develops, it is critical that the NHS is supported by other agencies to enable referrals to access appropriate support, especially for social and welfare issues.
Following the completion of the national roll-out of the wider 'NHS 111 Wales' service in March 2022, a national campaign was delivered to increase awareness, understanding and trust. The addition of '111 press 2' reflects our commitment to continue to develop urgent mental health services. Since the roll-out commenced in November 2022, it has already helped over 15,000 people in distress as well as concerned carers and family members to get the support they need.
As well as providing brief interventions to reduce distress and manage immediate mental health crisis, '111 press 2' has provided timely access to mental health services. For the minority, this has meant urgent care services, NHS mental health services, or primary care, but the majority have been navigated to local third sector groups or been given advice on self-management. A national awareness campaign will launch this week to further promote this important service and to extend the offer of support to everyone who needs it in Wales.
I do want to thank our health boards for their commitment in establishing this service in the context of sustained and significant pressures on our mental health services, with the support of the national collaborative commissioning unit and NHS 111 programme. The service now has over 140 staff in hubs across our seven health boards, and I don't underestimate the work undertaken by our dedicated teams and compassionate call takers to make this vision a reality.
The new service is the result of significant investment in mental health support in Wales, and is one of a number of service improvements. This includes implementing a range of alternatives to hospital admission, including sanctuaries. As part of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, the sanctuary offer has been extended, piloting a number of projects that provide dedicated sanctuary spaces for children and young people who find themselves in mental health crisis. We've also implemented a national model of mental health conveyance known as 'Taith Dda' or 'Good Journey', which provides a safe, compassionate and responsive mode of transport to help people access appropriate mental health support. It will provide an alternative to an ambulance or a police vehicle,and is a partnership between the NHS and St John Ambulance Cymru. These improvements provide the platform for truly integrated mental health support.
'111 press 2' further extends our package of easy-to-access mental health support. This includes our CALL mental health helpline, support for eating disorders by BEAT, and online cognitive behavioural therapy via SilverCloud. Through SilverCloud alone we have supported over 22,000 people in Wales through innovative support that doesn’t need a referral from a health professional.We can feel proud of these developments in Wales to improve support for the most vulnerable people in our society. This work to improve access to support for those who have reached crisis point is in the context of much broader, whole-system working to improve mental health and well-being. Our whole-school approach and the NEST/NYTH planning framework are good examples of our continued commitment to delivering cross-Government and cross-sectoral work to protect and support our emotional well-being and our mental health.
Later this year, we will consult on our future mental health and suicide prevention strategies in Wales. The independent evaluation of both strategies was published in March, and officials have already undertaken significant preparatory and engagement work with stakeholders and service users to inform a set of vision statements and principles. We are now moving into a period of pre-consultation engagement to ensure our successor plans are person centred and are shaped by the voices of users, carers and stakeholders in Wales.
I will be making a further statement on this later this year, ahead of the public consultation. Diolch, Llywydd.

James Evans.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Deputy—. Diolch, Llywydd, and I'd like to thank the Deputy Minister for your statement. It's been a long day already, Deputy Minister. [Laughter.]
I do think this is something very positive, and I know something that my party here are very keen on and very supportive of the work that the Welsh Government has done in this.
There are a lot of questions I've got from the statement. There's obviously the one around the 24-hour, seven-day-a-week service. That's very good, but what I'd like to understand is, we'd like to see actually people on the ground as well, those teams, actually in health boards as well, who can provide that 24-hour, seven-day-a-week care. It's very good that we've got the phone line that people can get support, but sometimes, those people do actually need somebody to go out in those out-of-hours service times to go out and see them and give them that help and support that they need. So, I'd like to know what more work the Government is doing on making sure that we have those actual crisis teams in those areas to go out and provide support.
The 'no wrong door' approach: I know me and you have talked about this a number of times, and I'm very supportive of that 'no wrong door' approach. It does say that people go seamlessly into other services to get the help. I'd like to understand how that actually works, because we do know, across certain parts of Wales, that people are struggling to get that help and support they need. So, what I'd like to know is, when they do phone up, and someone says, 'Well, you do need that additional support', how that exactly is working, because I think it's very good for us to know, and we can go back to our constituents and understand that.
What else have we got here? I think the 15,000 people who have actually been helped, I think that's an outstanding number of people who are going through that service already, and I think it does actually show that there is an actual serious problem with mental health in Wales, and I'm very pleased that this line is there now to give those people that support that they need, because I think, for too long, those people were suffering in silence at home and didn't know where to get that help. So, as I say, I'm very pleased that that has come forward. So, yes.
Also, the number of people who you've said are going into our hubs, the people who have been sort of recruited across Wales, what I'd like to know, as well as those answering the phones and those dedicated people, are we at full complement in all our health boards now with the people who can actually answer the phone and give that specialist support that those people need? I'd just like to associate myself with your comments: those people do an absolutely phenomenal job, and it's not easy doing that job, and I take my hat off to every single one of them who's doing that, but I'd like to know, are we at full complement right across Wales? You said that the stuff they're doing includes a range of alternative options to hospital admissions. It was in the co-operation you got with Plaid Cymru. I'd like to know what other alternative options you are actually exploring, other than going to hospital, because I don't think it's right that we send people with a mental health condition to A&E or to our hospitals; they need to go somewhere else for that specialist support they need.
The 'Taith Dda'—I think that's really good work that you're doing with St John Ambulance, because, as you said before, it's not right to put people who are suffering with a mental health crisis in the back of a police car. They can go in ambulances,but I don't think that's what they need. They do not need to go in police cars. That makes their whole episode a lot worse. But what I'd like to know about that is: is that being rolled out pan Wales or is that just going to be in our cities, because that wasn't quite clear in the statement—parts of the world that I represent in Powys, for example? I'd like to know if that's there, because police do an awful lot of pick-up work when people do phone, and I just don't think that's right.
You mentioned it's also about eating disorder services as well. I raised this with the First Minister last week, so I'd just like to know what further work we're doing on eating disorder services across Wales to make sure that those people are supported and get the help that they need. And if you could clarify the position of Government on that, I'd be very grateful.
And also, finally, on the replacement to 'Together for Mental Health', it's very pleasing to see it has come forward and the work that you're doing on that. So, I'd just like if you can give any further updates on that strategy, who you're speaking to and when we're going to actually see the consultation start, because it would be very useful to know that.
As I said, I'd just like to thank you for this statement, Minister. It's something that I fully believe that we need. It needs to be rolled out further, and I'd like to see it going right across Wales and doing more, but I think we're doing as much as we can in this current time, and I thank you very much for bringing this forward.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much to James Evans for that welcome and positive response. There were lots of questions there; I'll do my best to answer what I can. It is 24 hours a day, seven days a week, but that's not the only thing we are doing. Obviously, there are also the links then to the crisis teams, to the home intervention teams, to things like sanctuary services. So, this is part of a wider piece of work around urgent mental health support for people. And the beauty, really, of this service is we've got a really good dataset on what people are calling about, so that will enable us to identify any gaps in services.
So, for instance, if we saw in a particular area lots of people having to go to A&E, then that would tell us that we've got an issue in that area, and then we can work to try to plug the gaps in that. And it really is a very impressive—and I've got to pay tribute to the national collaborative commissioning unit and Shane Mills, who's led this work—a really impressive piece of work that they've done around the data that will be incredibly useful.
It is a 'no wrong door', which is obviously a programme for government commitment. What we don't want to see is people batted between services, and we have seen that in the past. So, what will happen with this is, if somebody rings up and they need additional help to what can be provided on the phone, then the mental well-being practitioners are meant to book in the appointment there and then for people to see someone, say it's with specialist CAMHS or if it's with the crisis team. They're meant to do that piece of work so that somebody isn't sent away to go back to look for other services. So, from that point of view, it is very much the 'no wrong door'.
And as you've highlighted, 15,000 people already have used it, and what's interesting is we can see from those figures that around half of those are people who were already in touch with mental health services. So, that means the other half haven't had any previous contact with mental health services, so, as part of the publicity for this new service now, what we want to do over the months ahead is make sure that we reach more and more people who need support but haven't made any contact with services.
The mental health conveyance project is an excellent project and, as you say, it's so important to avoid the stigma of putting people in the back of a police car, and that is available across Wales. So, that's a really good initiative.
In terms of the capacity of the service, there are currently 147 staff working in the hubs around Wales. We are monitoring really carefully the resilience of the service, because it's gone from operating part of the day to 24 hours. So, what we need to do now is really monitor that resilience so we know how long it's taking to answer the calls in the particular call centres, because the last thing you want is somebody to ring an urgent mental health number and then, 'Oh, you know five minutes late'. That would be terrible, and that's not happening, but we need to make sure the service is resilient, especially as we come into winter, when there are always those pressures. So, we’re keeping that under review.
In terms of eating disorder services, as you know, James, eating disorders are a priority for Welsh Government. We’ve invested last year around £2.5 million extra into eating disorder services. The emphasis has been on making sure that all health boards are meeting the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidance and the four-week waiting time. We’ve got the clinical lead in place now and we are making good progress. I know that you’re particularly interested in in-patient services, and the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee are doing a piece of work for us to have our own in-patient unit in Wales. That will be done as part of their work around their specialist services strategy, but I can also confirm that we’re confident that we will have some interim beds in Wales this summer, so that will be a step forward.
In terms of the strategy, there’s a huge amount of engagement going on with our service user and carer forum, we’re establishing a group of young people to act as a reference group for us, we’ve got things like the Wales Alliance for Mental Health, we’ve got the black and minority ethnic task and finish group. That’s an ongoing, iterative process, and a video has just gone live, setting out some of the visions in the statement so that we can get views before we go out to formal consultation. So, we’re looking to consult as widely and in as inclusive a way as we possibly can.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for the statement and for those responses to the questions from James. I agree with James—we have to go as far as we possibly can in terms of this service, because it is so important.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: There's much support for this service across the floor of the Siambr and from my party—there's been a vast amount for telephone and online mental health support. 'Beyond the Call', as you mentioned, the 2020 Welsh Government-commissioned report, established that demand on primary care, police, ambulance services and emergency departments, as well as NHS mental health services for those in crisis, and it's considerable. That review estimated that, every day in Wales, there are 941 calls or attendances or referrals for mental health or welfare concerns. When you're in a fragile mental health state, you need to know that you can access that advice and support that you need. Just as important is that, when you get that advice and support, it comes from trained and specialist staff. I sincerely hope that this service marks a sea change in the manner and speed that people in a mental health crisis are supported and treated. I suspect that many people have, over the years, been lost between these services before the launch of a specialist service like this. For anyone in the midst of a mental health crisis, being left to their own devices is far from ideal, and I'm sure we all have individuals within our communities and our own families that have been affected by things like this.
This brings me on to my first question. Can you tell me a bit more about the plans to publicise the service to ensure that people know that it exists? You mentioned a planned national campaign, but the track record for letting people know about existing telephone services is not great. For example, in a survey of adults in Wales, 65 per cent said they did not know to call the police on the 101 number for a non-emergency issue, and 48 per cent of women and 72 per cent of men did not know to call the NHS on 111 for a non-emergency medical situation. Are there plans to publicise this service differently to how national campaigns have previously been run?
There's also a need to ensure that the infrastructure is in place to support the service. We're likely to see an increased demand on mental health services in Wales as more people are signposted to the support they need. This is a good thing, but it's only a good thing if there's capacity in the area of the national health service and the third sector, which, over the years, have perhaps not been funded and resourced to the extent that they should be. Are you therefore confident that the additional finances you've made to date or have planned for the future will be sufficient to meet the extra demand anticipated as a result of this initiative? The phone and online service could provide a gold standard for treatment and signposting, but if there's not enough capacity in the system that could take the caller on to the next stage of treatment, then that would be a real shame; it will also be a real let-down for someone in that vulnerable state.
Finally, can you tell me how information gleaned from the service will be used to inform decisions around the allocation of funding for the future? It's also important that any data and evaluation of the service be shared with partners in the field of mental health to help them improve the services that they provide. Diolch yn fawr.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much, Peredur, for those points. I'm very happy to try and answer your questions. You're right to highlight 'Beyond the Call'; it was a really seminal piece of work. But what that showed was that for the vast majority of people who were making those emergency contacts with things like the police, it wasn't because they were mentally ill; they were for welfare reasons—people were distressed, they were in debt, people are lonely. So, this is an attempt, really, to address that.
There will be a full publicity campaign. Obviously, it has been publicised already, but now that it has gone live 24 hours a day, there will be a publicity campaign that is going to to be run, and, you know, it has worked for the usual 111 service. I can't comment on 101, because that's obviously a police service, but I know that health boards are also doing their own publicity and advertising via their own social media channels. What we're seeing so far is good use of the service and we would expect that to go up.
You make important points about the increase in demand, but the purpose of this, really, is to de-escalate those needs and to refer and signpost to the most appropriate support. In the figures that we've got so far on what's happened to the people who've contacted the service, 45 per cent of them have, through the course of the call, gone on to undertake self-care—they've had advice on self-care. Five per cent of them have been put in touch with third sector organisations. It's actually a very small number of people who've been referred on to specialist services.
You make important points about funding, but it's a programme for government commitment, it had £50 million extra last year and £75 million extra this year, with £90 million next year, so we're making good use of that money. What we can do with the data that we get from these calls is, if there are gaps, then we can look to plug them. As I said, if loads of people are going to A&E, that's not a good outcome for people, or if we think that there are young people who are presenting in a particular area—. So, we will use that data to inform our future plans, going forward.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement today. '111 press 2' is a really impressive scheme, so I welcome your update. The delivery of its 'no wrong door' approach I know is something that you are really passionate about, and I think it will be of inestimable value to people in our communities who need to access urgent mental health support. I'm really pleased to hear that it has helped over 15,000 people already and that 140 staff from across our health boards are delivering this service.
I recently had the chance to visit the Cwm Taf Morgannwg hub and to meet the team who are actually rolling this out, and it was absolutely fascinating to find out about the different skills that they brought to their roles, their background and how the variety of skills that they brought really enhanced the provision. So, I wonder what mechanisms Welsh Government may put in place to ensure that health boards work to provide a good quality and sustainable service in the long term, particularly in terms of future workforce planning.
My second question—. I look forward to following the planned awareness campaign. It's obviously really important that people know that the service is there, and I think one of the most impressive tributes that I heard when I met with the local service is that awareness of it at that point had grown organically by word of mouth. This builds on a question I asked the education Minister previously. I know you've already talked here about how the awareness-raising campaign can respond to data that's been collected, but, obviously, different messages and platforms will appeal best to different demographics, so how might that be incorporated into the campaign and what messaging might be used so that younger people, in particular, are aware of the service?

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much, Vikki, and I'm really pleased that you had the opportunity to go and see it in action. It really is an incredibly impressive service, and you've made a really important point about workforce, because the challenge that we've had with services—and it's not unique to Wales—is that we have got real workforce pressures. What we see when we invest in a new service is, often, we're robbing Peter to pay Paul, so staff will leave the one service and go and work in a different one.
The beauty of this service is it is a whole different type of staff member that is running the service, so they're mental well-being practitioners; they've all undergone a full suite of training, but they come from a variety of backgrounds. So, rather than being restricted to, say, a band 6 nurse, they could be occupational therapists, people who've done psychology degrees, but they've all had this level of training. So, it's very much a new type of workforce that isn't going to deplete the existing services, and is also very much in line with prudent healthcare.
In terms of the awareness campaign, we will do our best to use the data, and we are monitoring the numbers of people from different groups who ring, so we will know how many children have rung. We've got details on veterans and everything like that, so we will use that data then to try to target our communication. I would be really grateful if Members of this Chamber could let their constituents know about the service, because, obviously, you're all uniquely well placed to promote the service as well. That'll be an ongoing initiative to raise awareness of it, but I think the initial figures are very encouraging.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. I too join with everybody in the Siambr, I think, supporting the development of the service and the delivery of the service, as well. It's very impressive in terms of the number of people's needs that it's met so far and it's changed the lives of people, I'm sure—people like us. Any of us could suffer, and maybe many of us have suffered from particular mental health challenges, so it's really impressive. Thank you very much.
I just wanted to focus on one thing, and I know that you've joined our cross-party group looking at the first 1,000 days of children. You know the importance of that first period of a child's life, a baby's life, when it comes to ensuring that our newborns—and, indeed, investing to save for the next generation in terms of a service. We know that perinatal mental health problems affect up to 27 per cent of new and expectant mothers, and, if left untreated, can have significant long-lasting effects on parents and on children. So, I just wondered what we could do in terms of the service to skill up people in order to meet the potential needs of the people in touch with that service, and what plans you have for developing that in future. Thank you, diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much, Jane, for that welcome for the service, which is very much appreciated. You're right to highlight the importance of the first 1,000 days, and, as you know, I'm really passionate about infant mental health. This service is available for everyone, really, and we are also logging the numbers of people who call about perinatal mental health issues. Obviously, we've got specialist services, specialist teams in every part of Wales that provide perinatal mental health support, so I think it would depend on the level of need of the person. It might be that somebody who contacted the service might just need information or to be put in touch with a mums' group or a dads' group, or they might need to be put in touch with that specialist perinatal mental health team. But this is very much a service for everyone, no matter what their mental health need is, and that's why it's really important that all the hubs have developed pathways to all the local services, and they're even going to see some of those services, so that they're familiar with what is available in their local area so that they can make those connections.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much indeed for your statement, which is full of interesting detail. Obviously, if somebody is in a mental health crisis, the last place they want to go is a busy, noisy emergency department, so everything we can do to keep people out of that situation is very, very welcome.
I think this will particularly reassure those who have a family member who they know occasionally has crises, and if they can be certain in the knowledge that there will always be a service available 24/7, even when other services are closed, that's very good news.
It was interesting, the comment about setting up the 'Taith Dda', to convey somebody to a place of safety not in a police car. Having said that, in the past the police always played a very important part in being the only service that was available 24/7 and attending people who are in mental distress and who maybe were reported by their neighbours. I just wondered if you are satisfied that now that the police are refocusing their efforts onto other aspects of people breaking the law, whether this service is going to be sufficient to be that 24/7 response, because some people—. If it's a neighbour or family member who's making that call, the individual who's in distress may not be in a place to actually be talking to your mental health practitioners and to talk them down from the crisis. Will you, as back-up, have people who can jump into a car, if needed, to go to somebody in distress?

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Jenny. This is an urgent mental health service. If there is an emergency and a direct threat to life, then it is still the right thing to do to call 999. We've heard the announcements that have been made in England, in particular by the Met, but those relate to England. We have really good collaborative partnership arrangements with the police and other public services in Wales. We have a policing and partnership board for Wales, as well as all sorts of other partnership working that goes on on an ongoing basis, and we've got a joint agreement with the police that responding to mental health needs requires a joined-up and multi-agency approach. We're working with the police to understand the impact of the initiative that's called the 'Right Care, Right Person' programme in England, and that will include looking at the role that '111 press 2' can have as part of a multi-agency approach to mental health in Wales.

Thank you, Deputy Minister.

You've covered all the questions and people who wanted to contribute.

8. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership: Armed Forces Day

So, item 8 is next, a statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership on Armed Forces Day. I call on the Deputy Minister to make the statement. Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Armed Forces Week is an opportunity to show our support for everyone who is part of the community, from soldiers to service families and veterans.

Hannah Blythyn AC: As part of Armed Forces Week, this Saturday we mark Armed Forces Day with a national event in Newport. This year, in the Senedd, I want to particularly highlight our national service generation. I recently attended a commemoration at the national arboretum to mark 60 years since national service ended. They are now amongst our oldest generation of veterans and served throughout the world with distinction, including the Korean war, which ended 70 years ago.
When pausing to reflect this week, there are, of course, other communities with us here in Wales that I am sure Senedd Members will join in remembering today: those who worked alongside our troops in Afghanistan, and those who are here seeking shelter from the Ukraine war, many of whom will have family and friends engaged in combat operations. Our own armed forces are providing support through deployments to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's forward presence in Estonia, and by training and supplying Ukrainian troops in the UK. As ever, this commitment has been full on, with long hours and separation impacting on individuals and family life.
The commitments embodied in the armed forces covenant remain key, that the commitment of service is recognised; that disadvantage, where it occurs, is acted on; and that, in some instances, priority access to services is justified. Recognition is not once a year through Armed Forces Day. Raising awareness and knowledge of the needs of the armed forces community is an ongoing task.
Our veterans scoping exercise, which complements the UK veterans strategy, supports that. Three years since its creation, our progress includes a 35 per cent funding uplift for Veterans' NHS Wales, our flagship mental health service, which is now piloting an intervention providing mental health support for veterans in prisons in Wales; the establishment of a veterans employment fair in 2021, with plans well advanced for the 2023 event, and, in 2024, a new north and mid Wales event; the roll-out of additional transition courses by the Ministry of Defence and the career transition partnership in Wales; the provision of specialist prosthetics to veterans in Wales, which now includes the provision of microprocessor knees to veterans with non-service related injuries, subject to clinical need; recognition of the importance of service families through the continued funding of Supporting Service Children in Education Cymru; investing an extra £80,000 in 2023-24 to fund regional schools liaison officers across Wales; and work to improve the information available to our armed forces community through a Wales covenant newsletter and a Wales transition guide that is now shared with transition officers across the UK.
But it does not, and should not, stop there, and building on the veterans scoping exercise, I am pleased to report further developments. Just last month, I joined my colleague the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being and the chief medical officer at the launch of a GPs accreditation scheme. We visited a GP surgery in Cwmbran and heard about the importance of the GP'spractice understanding when a condition might be service related, and being able to make onward referrals with that insight. Alongside this, we have also launched a new clinical priority guidance that will help GPs in prioritising veterans' treatment where it is appropriate to do so.
Those providing housing, health and education at the local level now have a legal duty to demonstrate due regard for their local armed forces community. To help with this, the Welsh Government has supported the production of bilingual online training to assist with raising awareness within local authorities and health boards.
This debate comes a year into Colonel James Phillips’s time as Veterans' Commissioner for Wales. He's been an active advocate for veterans in Wales. His first report is a helpful external assessment of some of the challenges and opportunities in supporting veterans in Wales, and his overall assessment is that
'Wales is a good place to be a Veteran but with some areas where there is potential for improvement'.
Working together to address these challenges is what we do in Wales, and there are many organisations in the third sector providing support and services to some of our most vulnerable veterans. Last week, I met with a range of charities funded through the Armed Forces Covenant Fund Trust as part of the veterans' places, pathways and people portfolio. The trust has a consultation open now on shaping its funding priorities for the next three years, and there is an opportunity for voices from Wales to help shape that.
Central to this partnership approach are our armed forces liaison officers across Wales. There has been wide recognition for the work of our armed forces liaison officers, which I have committed to funding for a further two years. Later this year, I will be commissioning an external evaluation of their impact and how we can learn and improve for the future.
Finally, we soon expect to see the findings of Lord Etherton’s independent review into overdue recognition for a particular part of our armed forces community—those who were affected by the pre-2000 gay ban. I have met with Lord Etherton and I expect the report to include suggestions for Welsh Government to consider. I recently attended the official event to mark the completion of the review, and spoke to veterans who contributed to the report. Their stories of ruined careers, shame and suffering are distressing, and I am very much committed to continuing to work with the charity Fighting With Pride to support LGBTQ+ veterans and respond to the review’s recommendations.
This Armed Forces Week, I am pleased to have had this chance to update the Senedd on how the Welsh Government is building on our support for our armed forces community.

Hannah Blythyn AC: This week, and every week, we remain committed to doing our best by those who have served, and those who continue to serve.

Mark Isherwood AC: Armed Forces Day takes place on the last Saturday of each June, falling this year on 24 June. Celebrations began yesterday, when the armed forces flag was raised on buildings and famous landmarks around the country. Reserves Day tomorrow, 21 June, will also provide an opportunity to recognise our reserved forces, including an employer reception to celebrate Reserves Day in the Senedd tomorrow evening, sponsored by the chair of the cross-party group on armed forces and cadets, Darren Millar.
With official figures in 2021 stating that around 115,000 people in Wales reported that they'd previously served in the UK armed forces, the percentage was higher than in England. Of these, 113,000—98.2 per cent—lived in households, and the percentage of households with one or more persons who had served in the UK armed forces was higher in Wales at 8.1 per cent than in England at 7 per cent. Across Wales, the local authorities with the highest proportion of veterans include Conwy, Anglesey and Pembrokeshire. What figures does the Welsh Government have for the number of people in the armed forces community in Wales, including serving personnel, ex-personnel and their families? And how does it factor this into its support, planning and delivery?
It is almost 19 years since I first raised here the need for traumatised ex-forces personnel to access mental health care and receive priority treatment. After meeting ex-service personnel with service-related mental health issues, including post-traumatic stress disorder at Tŷ Gwyn in Llandudno, then the only residential respite centre for ex-forces personnel in the UK whose service had ranged from the Dunkirk retreat to the Falklands. Despite this, it was allowed to close, with no alternative provision put in place. But the Welsh Government did eventually launch Veterans NHS Wales, providing veterans living in Wales with non-residential assessment and psychological treatment for mental health problems, including PTSD. As Veterans NHS Wales have told me, they're grateful for their additional recurrent funding, which we had been calling for. I was told, however, there was a need for a peer mentor in each local health board. Will the Deputy Minister, therefore, confirm what action is now being taken regarding this need for a peer mentor in each local health board, and whether the Welsh Government has now implemented this or will be doing so?
And will the Deputy Minister join me in welcoming the UK Government's £320 million investment in the armed forces estate in Wales, including a new reserve company of the Royal Welch at the Wrexham’s Hightown barracks and the retention of Brecon barracks?
I spoke at the 2013 launch at Wrexham’s Hightown barracks of Change Step, the veteran support programme in Wales that helps veterans and their families tackle service-related mental health conditions by providing tailored peer support and specialist intervention. I visited the Veterans' Gateway call centre in Nantgarw with other members of the cross-party group on armed forces and cadets last Thursday, one of whom is sitting behind you, which is there for any ex-service personnel and their families looking for advice or support, whatever they're dealing with. We met members of their friendly helpline team, who can be contacted 24/7, who told me that Change Step was one of the key services they refer into. What action is the Welsh Government therefore taking to ensure that the essential services provided by Change Step continue to be available?
The December 2021 UK Armed Forces Act 2021 enshrined the armed forces covenant in law for the first time to help prevent service personnel and veterans being disadvantaged when accessing essential services like healthcare, education and housing. Beyond supporting the production of bilingual online training, what practical action has the Welsh Government since taken to ensure that this is both implemented and monitored in Wales?
How is the Welsh Government responding to five key recommendations in the June 2022 female veterans report, 'Female veterans: The forgotten and invisible servicewomen of our Armed Forces', covering peer-to-peer support, improvement of transition services and resettlement, medical services, financial employment support and life skills workshops?
And finally, will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's definition of ‘service children’ and the data captured by the pupil-level annual school census, and on how this is being used to inform provision for armed forces children in Welsh schools? Diolch yn fawr.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank Mark Isherwood for his contributions and, actually, the way in which, during your contribution, you've raised awareness of those number of organisations that we know are doing incredible work in communities across Wales, supporting not only our veterans, but their families and the people around them too. We know that we are only able to do the work we do in Wales by that partnership working with these organisations, whether through our armed forces expert group, or out in the field the work with the armed forces liaison officers as well.I'll endeavour to come backon as many of the points as I can that Mark Isherwood raised, but if I don't get to cover them all, then you're very welcome to follow up, and I'm more than happy to pick that up outside this Chamber with some of the more detailed points as well.
If I just pick up on the point around Veterans NHS Wales and the work that sits alongside that in terms of peer mentoring and Change Step as well. I'm aware that a number of health boards have noted potential concerns around the loss of peer mentors, through Change Step, with their veteran NHS leads. They've previously worked for that wraparound support, and that issue has been picked up by health colleagues through the health boards' veterans champions meeting, and we are working with them to ensure that we can actually address those challenges going forward. I mentioned in my statement too last week that I met with a number of organisations that make up what's now the four 'P's organisations, and they were talking about the work they're doing to support, particularly, mental health and how that complements and aligns with the Veterans NHS Wales service. So, I'm really keen to continue that work with them and their funding—the armed forces covenant funding—to make sure that it aligns and complements the work that they're doing. I very much made it clear, at that event, that we're there to support them and work with our counterparts in the UK Government to ensure that veterans in Wales are fully getting the support they need.
With regard to the position around facts and figures and the statistics and how that helps shape our work, well, this year, you'll be aware, we've seen—. We know that, proportionally, more people in Wales have served in the armed forces than elsewhere in the UK. We have a greater representation of serving people and veterans amongst our population than over the border in England. This year's seen some really positive elements in terms of the data that's going to become available to us, so we're starting now to get releases of the detailed information from the 2021 census, and we'll shortly see similar information from the veterans' survey that was carried out too. So, we will work to see that that census and that survey data are a real opportunity to work with health boards and local authorities, to build that evidence base in how they not only just demonstrate the due regard for their local armed forces community, but help support the work of the armed forces liaison officers as well.
And finally, you mentioned the Reserves Day and the Reserves Day event in the Senedd tomorrow, which is being sponsored by Darren Millar, who I know is a keen champion of our veterans and armed forces community, and I'll be very pleased to join colleagues at that event, in support, tomorrow evening as well.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you to the Deputy Minister for her statement.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I was particularly interested to hear about the extra resources being invested in improving the offers for veterans and the renewed commitments to the military covenant. The issues of veterans' treatment in all aspects of public life is a bigger issue here than it is over the border in England. Veterans form 4.5 per cent of the adult population in Wales, compared to 3.8 per cent in England. It is therefore vitally important that we get their treatment right in Wales.
I want to begin by saying that it would be churlish not to recognise the strides that have been made to improve services for veterans; you listed many of them in your statement earlier. We've come a long way in the last decade to make lives easier for serving military personnel as well as veterans. It is a positive step that the armed forces covenant has now come into law for housing, education and health. Staff within these departments have to apply due regard in respect of the armed forces community, and that's right and proper. So, are we in a place where we can just sit back and admire the work that has been carried out on behalf of the armed forces community? I would suggest not. And, Deputy Minister, you've already alluded to that and that you tend to agree on this. As you've said, this is also the view of Colonel James Phillips, the Veterans' Commissioner for Wales. In the latest Wales Armed Forces Covenant newsletter for Wales,he states:
'My assessment is that Wales in 2023 is not a bad place to be a veteran, but we can still make it better.'
In the spirit of co-operation, I will outline a few things that would help armed service personnel in their everyday life, and I would be grateful for the Deputy Minister's feedback on whether these matters are in train or are being considered. I think there is a need to ensure that there is equality of service for veterans, no matter where they live in our country. There may be good examples of health boards following the military covenant, while others do not pay the regard it deserves—I have heard anecdotal evidence of this happening in my own region. With that in mind, can you tell me what mechanisms are in place to ensure that veterans get the treatment they should be getting, whether they live in the north, south, east or west of our country?
On the topic of health, you spoke of the GP accreditation scheme being launched in Wales. Veteran-friendly GP practices were originally conceived by a GP from Yorkshire, who, prior to his career in primary healthcare, had served in Iraq. He came up with the idea when a patient told him that they had specifically joined his practice to see someone who could understand his needs as a veteran. The scheme, backed by the Royal College of General Practitioners, seeks to better identify and treat veterans, ensuring that they get access to dedicated care where appropriate. It is my understanding that there are around 1,000 veteran-friendly GP practices in England, yet we had to wait until this month for our first one. You mentioned the official launch of the Welsh scheme in the last few weeks, but I would be grateful if we could have an update on the roll-out of the scheme and the prospect of catching up with England on this matter. Making Wales as veteran friendly as it possibly can be is a shared goal across the political divide. With the right ambition, the political will, we can get there. Diolch yn fawr.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch, Peredur. I think you make a really good point at the end about where there is so much shared common ground in terms of support for veterans and our armed forces community. And just a couple of weeks ago, actually, I met with the veterans Minister, Johnny Mercer, in London, and we made clear at that meeting too—it was a very positive meeting—that we genuinely want to work together, to make sure that that support is there. And when there is investment or announcements coming from a UK basis, we just want to work together, to make sure that they work in the best way they can in Wales as well, and make sure that it's done in a way that meets the needs of veterans here in Wales, taking that data, that intelligence we have from those people working within health boards, like the armed forces liaison officers, and we know of the different charitable organisations too.
You're absolutely right too in terms of the fact that we can reflect and be proud of what we have done, but we are certainly not complacent and sitting down and thinking that's all we need to do, and you can always build on what's come before and seek to improve that and to go further as well. In terms of that parity—I will particularly, perhaps, focus on health—we have independent armed forces and veterans champions and executive leads in every health board to advocate for serving personnel and veterans, to ensure that their needs are included in things like the service planning. We have previously issued guidance on the armed forces covenant healthcare priority for veterans to all health boards, and to remind them of the armed forces covenant commitment to provide priority treatment for veterans suffering from health concerns and conditions that are directly related to the time in service. I know that some health boards—and I think that Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board in the north and Cardiff and Vale also now have specific roles to support delivery of the armed forces covenant, and that is obviously to be welcomed. But it's something we want to continue to work with, to see that best practice disseminated out across Wales, so where we learn from what works in certain areas and that can be shared elsewhere, and that's very much a focus of the Welsh Government in supporting with our colleagues and services across the country, to ensure that that happens.
In relation to the GP accreditation scheme, whilst we launched it last month, it had started to be rolled out before that, but we wanted to have a soft launch, and then go back and actually do the official launch of it. The scheme has been delivered by Health Education and Improvement Wales—you mentioned the scheme in England—and I'm actually grateful to the work that they've done to develop the scheme that is supporting GPs to become veteran aware via training and accreditation. And it was really interesting for me to see first hand too, in terms of what the systems and things that the GPs used to do that too, and the questions they asked, and the way in which they do it. I'm aware at the moment that we're looking at around, I think, since the launch, over 40 GPs have registered. So I'd very much ask Members actually in this place, and urge them to help us to spread the word too, to promote the scheme and encourage GP practices to sign up within our own constituencies and regions as well. And I'm happy to continue to update Members in terms of how that roll-out is going, and perhaps where we might need to do that extra push collectively to get further GP practices signed up to the scheme too.

Alun Davies AC: I should put on record that, alongside Darren Millar, I serve on the reserves and cadet forces board for Wales.
I think this is an opportunity for us to pay tribute to our armed forces and the service they provide to us, both at home and abroad. We've seen in recent years, of course, how the armed forces supported us during the wholeCOVID pandemic, and the way in which we were able to deliver the programme to support the NHS through the support of our armed forces, and I think we retain a great deal of gratitude for them for the work they did through that programme. But also, I'm think particularly of those Welsh regiments who are serving and have served protecting NATO's eastern flank, because we speak about the war in Ukraine and the effect it's having on the people of Ukraine, and how the people of the United Kingdom have moved to support the people of Ukraine in recent times, but it is our armed forces, of course, that are protecting the Balkan states and protecting NATO's eastern flank at the moment.
I was pleased to read in your statement, Deputy Minister, that you're going to be reviewing the work of the armed forces liaison officers. The armed forces liaison officers do a tremendous job in supporting and sustaining services that are being delivered to veterans in local authorities up and down Wales. I hope that when you have been able to review the work that is done by the liaison officers that you'll be able to make the funding more permanent, because I think one of the issues that's really important—. And in a conversation we had on HMS Cambria two weeks ago with the all-party group on the armed forces, we heard about how the recurrent two-year funding programme makes it very difficult to plan ahead and to provide sustainability and consistency over time. So, it would be useful if you could make a statement on that, Deputy Minister.But I think this is an occasion when Members in all parts of the Chamber will come together and speak about how we can repay the debt we owe to our armed forces for the work they do day in, day out in serving us and the people of this country.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank Alun Davies, as, again, another Member in this Chamber who's very much committed to advocating on this for our armed forces and veterans community, not just within this place but beyond as well? And I absolutely join with Alun in paying tribute to our armed forces who are serving currently, whether that be in relation to, like you say, the eastern front in Ukraine or supporting the Ukraine effort, as communities here in Wales are doing as well. But we reflect too, like you said, on the role that the armed forces community played in helping us rise to the challenge here at home in terms of the COVID pandemic not so long ago.
The pitch you made regarding the armed forces liaison officers, or AFLOs as we often refer to them, I'm really looking forward to seeing the outcome of the review, but also using that to—. The role of AFLOs is recognised beyond Wales as well, and I'm very keen to see how we can use the outcome of that review to really shine a spotlight on the good work they do, those examples of really good practice, the difference that it makes to the community and how they actually play a really, really pivotal and valued role. I know we've spoken in this place before about the two-year funding, and I very much recognise not just questions around stability in terms of planning and the work that they can do, but recognise these are people's jobs as well. So, we are in the position we are because of the way in which our funding is currently determined, but it's very much something that we are alive to when we look at the role of the AFLOs in the future.

Darren Millar AC: Can I thank the Minister for her statement today? I'm really glad that this is an annual fixture now in our diaries as Members of the Senedd. That hasn't always been the case, but you've certainly embraced this opportunity to make sure that we celebrate our armed forces here in Wales in Armed Forces Week, and I'm very pleased also that you accepted the invitation to tomorrow night's event to mark Reserves Day, because we know the important role that reservists play in ensuring that we have adequate armed services personnel, and the way in which employers support and facilitate their role as reservists is also very, very important indeed.
I certainly want to echo the calls for more sustainable funding for our armed forces liaison officers. We had an excellent presentation from Lisa Rawlings from Gwent, who told us more about the importance of their work in our recent cross-party group, and, of course, they're a regular contributor to our work here in the Senedd. One of the challenges that we have seen in recent years is that there's not a similar engagement, if you like, with the armed forces in our health boards. Now, there are some exceptions. We’ve got some very good people working in north Wales, for example. We have Zoe Roberts, our armed forces covenant lead, who does a super job. But we need people like that in every single health board in Wales to make sure that there’s a consistent approach to the application of the armed forces covenant, and we must remind ourselves, of course, at all times of the fact that public services, local authorities, the Welsh Government have subscribed to this covenant that we all want to make sure that it’s actually upheld. So, I will want to work with you, Minister, and the cross-party group will too, to make sure that we can hold people’s feet to the fire in ensuring that the covenant is actually going to be delivered by those people who have subscribed to it.
And two things, if I may: will you be supporting schools to embrace this new opportunity through the armed forces friendly schools initiative, which Supporting Service Children in Education Cymru have now created? It’s obviously a UK-leading programme. We want to see it rolled out across the whole of Wales, particularly where service children are in our schools, and I want to know what resource you’re going to put into that. I’m very pleased, obviously, with the extra resources that have gone into NHS Wales, but there is more that we can do. We echo Colonel James Phillips’s comments about the fact that Wales is a place that supports our veterans and our armed forces, but we can always do more, and these are just some of the things we could make some further progress on.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch, Darren, and it is one of those rare but welcome occasions in the Senedd Chamber when I can't really find anything that I disagree with Darren Millar on. Please don't quote me on that, anybody, outside of this place. But, no, in all seriousness, I very much welcome the way in which you engaged and we worked together on this issue, and also the role you play as an observer now on the armed forces expert group too, in maintaining that link between that group and the work of the cross-party group in the Senedd. I know that my officials always attend the cross-party group, too, to make sure that two-way working continues and that commitment is there to continue that moving forward. You again highlight the role of the armed forces liaison officers in Wales, and I’m really pleased that Lisa Rawlings was able to come and give that presentation. Lisa was superb. She actually joined us recently at the official launch of the GP accreditation scheme, and she was rightly absolutely buzzing, because it’s something that has affected her herself, and which she’s been very much advocating and pushing for for a long time. So, I’m really pleased we were able to begin the roll-out of that, and hopefully to see that really bed in in every GP practice right across Wales as well.
You’re right—I will be joining you at the event tomorrow night, which I’m very much looking forward to. With regard to schools as well, and schools liaison, I was really pleased that my colleague the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language actually announced an increase in funding for the SSCE Cymru project of £350,000 just yesterday. So, we are working across Government to make sure that we’re able to support not just our veterans, but service children and service families as well. Just to emphasise that cross-Government working in this area, after Colonel James Phillips came into position, we’ve made sure that I’ve facilitated meetings with colleagues across Government so he’s had those introductions and actually where all those different levers are so we know we’re all working across Government, and he’s had opportunities to present his priorities as the first veterans’ commissioner in Wales. So, I think very much that that collaborative working with the commissioner too has begun, and it’s something that we’re committed to continuing.

We are out of time on this statement and I've got more people left on my list to speak than I've already called, so if I can have succinct questions and succinct answers, then I'll see where I draw the line. Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you for this statement, and I'm glad it's been mentioned, Saturday's event in Newport to mark Armed Forces Day in Wales. It's of profound importance to us.
It is still astonishing, if I go to my question, Llywydd, that opinion polls suggest that half of British people, only half of British people—are cognisant of what D-day actually was and its importance to us. It's also important that we keep a sustainable funding stream for our armed forces liaison officers. Caerphilly County Borough Council armed forces community covenant champion is Councillor Teresa Heron, who represents Cefn Fforest and Pengam, and I'm sure she would also welcome, alongside me, the recent support for service members' children in our Welsh schools. So, my question, then, Deputy Minister: what can the Welsh Government do to increase the profile and opportunities for armed forces champions to feed back into the working life of local authorities and to make clearer the variety of policies being developed and cascaded for our veterans, armed forces and their families across the communities of Wales?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank Rhianon Passmore for her question and actually join her in thanking people like Teresa for the work that they do in championing our armed forces in local authorities right across Wales? The Welsh Government is working very closely, through our armed forces liaison officers, through our armed forces expert group, which is made up of different representatives on there, to make sure that best practice, and actually identifying those areas where we do need to do some more work, and how we disseminate that information, so, making sure that—. One of the things we did with the scoping exercise was ask, 'What is the first port of call?' Where is the information not just for veterans, but, like you say, to raise awareness of the role that was played in our communities and in our country, whether that's in the past few years or further back in history? So, there's very much some ongoing work there, and I can give the commitment to the Member we're very much committed to continuing that.
You rightly raise that Newport is hosting Armed Forces Day this year, and I look forward to attending there for part of the day's commemorations. Last year, it was in Wrexham, and I believe next year it will be in Swansea—

Mike Hedges AC: Yes.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I'm glad I got that right, Mike Hedges.

Paul Davies AC: Deputy Minister, one of the most important ways we can honour our heroes and pay tribute to their service and sacrifice is to protect Wales's war memorials, and I appreciate that some of this responsibility lies with your colleague the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, and I'm pleased that she's in her place here this afternoon. But I'm sure you'll take a keen interest in this as well. Now, you and your colleagues will know that, for several years, I've been calling for legislation to be brought forward in relation to this matter, and whilst I understand that the Welsh Government has decided not to support that campaign, it's absolutely crucial that measures are taken to better protect war memorials here in Wales. Therefore, Deputy Minister, can you update us on the discussions you've had with your colleagues about how the Welsh Government will prioritise the protection of war memorials, going forward?
Finally, it's also vital that the Welsh Government shows some leadership in relation to tackling the vandalism and theft of war memorials. Now, these are crimes against society, and there should be no stone unturned in identifying ways to stop those who attempt to remove or vandalise war memorials. So, can you also tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that local authorities have the support and resources they need to address incidents of vandalism and theft of war memorials in our communities? And can you update us on any discussions that you and your colleagues have had with local authorities and police forces on this particular issue?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I very much join Paul Davies in condemning these acts of vandalism or theft when it comes to our war memorials, and we know there are very many groups who spend a lot of time actually maintaining, looking after and educating around war memorials. I've an organisation within my own area called Flintshire War Memorials—names on stones—and they've done a lot of work so people know who those people are on those war memorials too. So, I very much join you in that.
With respect, and in the interests of brevity too now, I am more than happy to pick up the points you raised in relation to war memorials and the maintaining of them with my colleague the Deputy Minister for arts and sport, who is sat next to me. And I'm more than happy to update the Member on that in due course.

Jack Sargeant AC: For the record, Members may be aware I'm incredibly proud to be an honorary member of the Royal Welch Fusiliers Comrades Association Shotton and Deeside branch. Taking note of what you've said earlier, Llywydd, I wonder, Deputy Minister, if you share my ambition of bringing Armed Forces Day back to north Wales at the next possible opportunity, and if you could outline how councils interested in that may be able to bid, with Welsh Government support, to host such events.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank the Member and recognise what he says in terms of the local interest we all have in terms of those groups and organisations and our own local backgrounds too. I mentioned the national arboretum and the national service memorial, and I was really pleased, proud and privileged to go on behalf of the Welsh Government, but also my own grandad actually served in national service in Nigeria just a couple of years after the end of the second war world war. I remember growing up seeing those black-and-white images of him serving out in Lagos and, on the back, little love letters to my nan, who he was then courting, as they used to say. So, we all have those local connections, and I think it's really right that we raise them and promote them the best we can and at all available opportunities.
In respect of Armed Forces Day coming back to north Wales, the Welsh Government provides support and works with local authorities, so I would encourage local authorities to come forward, to get in touch with Welsh Government officials to look to how, perhaps, after Swansea next year, the year after, we may be able to return to north Wales.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister. I just want to welcome all the positive steps that you've taken, particularly in regard to service children and the strides forward that you've taken in this regard. Coming from an armed forces family, I know how important it is to recognise the work and the commitment and the contribution that our armed forces make, and the huge debt of gratitude, obviously, that we owe them. This Armed Forces Day and the event in Newport on Saturday will give us that chance to pay tribute and recognise that contribution that they make.
During my time on Monmouthshire County Council, I was armed forces champion, and now, five local authorities have achieved gold in the defence employer recognition scheme, and also offer the guaranteed interview scheme, which is absolutely brilliant and welcome. It's in large part due to the contribution of those armed forces liaison officers, which has already been mentioned, including Lisa Rawlings from my area, who is absolutely phenomenal and hard-working, effective and knowledgeable. And credit where credit's due: the Senedd has taken great strides for veterans, but in order for us to strive forward and really make that smooth transition into civilian life, we need those liaison officers. And therefore, my question to you, which has already been asked, was to ensure the permanency of that funding, of that pay for our liaison officers; they are absolutely vital. I also reiterate the calls that Darren Millar made for the same sort of liaison officers within our NHS. So, I ask you to do that. Thanks.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I know, Laura Anne Jones, that, given your background, this is something that you're very committed to. Can I join you in congratulating those authorities who are getting their gold award? That is no mean feat, and I actually want to encourage others to do the same and see further recognition across Wales. And at the danger of invoking the wrath of the Llywydd now in terms of brevity, I take on board all the points that you've made, and others have made, with regard to armed forces liaison officers and the incredible role that they play in communities across Wales.

I wish you always listened quite as well when I ask for succinct questions and answers. Because you've done so well, I'm going to be able to call James Evans.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Llywydd. Deputy Minister, it's very good that we can all come together today to celebrate Armed Forces Day and the fantastic work that our armed forces do to protect us here to make sure that we're all safe, and also the humanitarian work that they do around the world. But it's also a good opportunity to highlight some of the issues facing our armed forces. What we are seeing is a 30 per cent decline in the number of people actually becoming full-time people serving in our armed forces. I'd like to know what work the Welsh Government can do to actually promote people to join the armed forces, to make sure that that service always has personnel ready to be deployed whenever we need them.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I should be careful what I wish for; I should have spoken for longer in response to Laura Anne Jones—no. I welcome James Evans's contribution, and I know in terms of the constituency that you represent, this is something that's very close to your heart and something that you do raise whenever you can in the Senedd Chamber. I think in terms of the recruitment of the armed forces, that's obviously very much a reserved issue, but it's something that we can look at. We do a lot of work in terms of employment and transition, but there's the work we're doing too in terms of Reserves Day and the reserves event as well, and how we encourage perhaps employers in Wales to recognise the role that reservists play, and that being a benefit and asset to the community as well—so, actually, how we can do that in terms of using our leverage in Wales in terms of seeing that as a positive as an employer, to give people that time to do that as that stepping stone to support the armed forces community as well.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

9. Legislative Consent Motion on the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

The next item is item 9, the LCM on the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill. The Deputy Minister to move the motion. Dawn Bowden.

Motion NDM8297 Dawn Bowden
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provisions in the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Dawn Bowden AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provisions in the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill, insofar as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament. I thank the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their scrutiny of the legislative consent memoranda and for their recommendations that the Senedd support and consent to clauses 141 and 142 of, and Schedules 6 and 7 to, the Bill.
The UK has one of the largest and most open economies, making it an attractive place for global business. This openness, however, exposes the UK to the risk of those seeking to perpetrate fraud and money laundering. The Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill contains provisions to reform Companies House, to prevent abuse of limited partnerships, and to enable the seizure and recovery of crypto assets held by criminals. I support the policy objectivesin the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill to prevent organised crime, fraudsters, kleptocrats and terrorists from using companies and other corporate entities to abuse the UK's open economy.
The making of these provisions would ensure that the Welsh economy is an unwelcome environment for money laundering, economic cyber crime and other related illegal activity. I support the allocation of appropriate resources for Companies House to implement the changes around its increased responsibilities as a result of the implementation of the Bill.
In November, we laid a legislative consent memorandum, and in January and March supplementary legislative consent memoranda, and recommended that the Senedd support the proposals and give its consent. I therefore ask the Senedd to give its consent to this LCM this afternoon.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Plaid Cymru opposes the use of LCMs as a matter of principle. We firmly believe that decisions on areas of devolved competence should be made without exception by this Senedd.
In terms of this Bill, tightening regulations to counter the influence of illicit finance and enforce corporate transparency is to be welcomed. It’s worth reminding ourselves, however, that, prior to Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, this Tory Government oversaw a veritable flood of dirty Russian money coming into the UK economy. It’s with good reason that London subsequently acquired the moniker ‘Moscow-on-Thames’. And even now, almost a year and a half since the start of the full-scale invasion and almost a decade since the illegal annexation of Crimea, the apparent links between the Tories and Russian money have yet to be fully bottomed out. For example, perhaps the Tories could refuse any further donations from Russian sources and they could hand back the £243,000 that they’ve already received from such donors since the start of the Ukraine invasion. As highlighted by the investigative work of the Good Law Project, this includes donations from the wife of a former Russian deputy finance Minister and a company owned by a Russian oil tycoon.
We should also consider the Tory courting of oligarchs such as Evgeny Lebedev. Boris Johnson, in all his wisdom, nominated him for the House of Lords despite him deriving his wealth from his father, Alexander, who was recently sanctioned by Ukraine for his association with the Kremlin regime. Given their lamentable track record on this front, we’re highly sceptical that this Tory Government will be an effective enforcer of corporate transparency in this practice. Ultimately, the best way to ensure that our economy works fully in the interest of the Welsh people, rather than in the interest of shady oligarchs and tax-dodging multinationals, is through independence.
Turning to the specific provisions of the Bill on reforming Companies House, could the Minister reveal whether she has had any discussions with the UK Government on the provision of additional resources to the Welsh branches of Companies House to ensure that they are able to discharge their new responsibilities effectively? Diolch yn fawr.

I have no other speakers. Does the Deputy Minister wish to respond?

Dawn Bowden AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Just to say very briefly that I wouldn't necessarily disagree with Peredur's concerns about Russian oligarchs and connections in the UK. However, the Bill is aimed at strengthening the UK's borders in response to economic crime in particular, giving law enforcement new powers to seize those cryptoassets and enabling businesses in the financial sector to share information more effectively.
The preparatory discussions with the UK Government and subsequent analysis have indicated that the devolved provisions in question are technical and non-contentious and it's therefore appropriate to use the Bill to make these provisions rather than utilising a Senedd Bill. Given that, Llywydd, the Bill will help the Welsh economy to remain an open economy, whilst remaining an unwelcome environment for money laundering, economic cyber crime and other related illegal activity, I therefore ask Members to consent to the Bill.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

10. Legislative Consent Motion on the Illegal Migration Bill

Item 10 is next, the LCM on the Illegal Migration Bill. The Minister for Social Justice to move the motion. Jane Hutt.

Motion NDM8296 Jane Hutt
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provisions in the Illegal Migration Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I move the motion and recommend that Members withhold their consent to this Bill. I'm grateful to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, the Equality and Social Justice Committee and the Children, Young People and Education Committee for considering the legislative consent memorandum and for their recent report. I note the majority of the committees' members agreed with the position I'm putting forward to the Senedd today. I will, of course, provide further information in due course in response to the committees' reports.
Llywydd, the UK Government's Illegal Migration Bill will fundamentally undermine our nation of sanctuary vision, which the Senedd has endorsed. A suite of respected individuals and organisations have stated unequivocally that this Bill breaches our obligations and amounts to a ban on asylum. Of course, those voices were joined yesterday by leading medical bodies. The Houses of Parliament Joint Committee on Human Rights has set out clearly that the Bill provisions are not compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights, or numerous other binding legal obligations, including in relation to modern slavery and the refugee convention.
There are compassionate and effective ways that we can address the plight of sanctuary seekers, principally by the UK Government securing safe and legal routes, as I called for in my written statement in March. It is Refugee Week, and this year's theme is compassion. It's timely that we as a Senedd need to consider this Illegal Migration Bill in that context. Our approach is about integration, about seeing the child first before the immigration status, about putting the best interests of children as the paramount consideration. The Bill rides roughshod over this approach.
The provisions covered by the two legislative consent memoranda I have laid include the removal of children from the care of Welsh social services with possible detention and deportation; the removal of the right to appeal an age assessment decision, despite the very significant detrimental impacts that will be caused by an incorrect decision being reached; the power for the UK Government to presume that a young person is an adult where they withhold consent to participate in a so-called scientific age assessment, despite the impact of this and the invasive nature of these tests; and the power of the Secretary of State to amend Senedd Cymru legislation as a result of decisions taken to exempt particular cohorts of people from the new duty to remove them from the UK. I want to note that the Bill has had a numbering change in the last week, so that what we've been referring to as clauses 55 and 56 are now clauses 56 and 57.
The Bill does not recognise the devolved context of Wales, and confers power, as I've outlined, on the Secretary of State to make regulations imposing functions on devolved Welsh authorities. In Wales, we treat all unaccompanied asylum-seeking children as looked-after children, and this is set out in Welsh law under Part 6 of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. Our policy position arises from our commitment to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child to act in the best interests of all children. And as the Welsh Local Government Association reported to our committee, local authorities will have the challenge of navigating two statutory but conflicting approaches to age assessment, as they attempt to fulfil their duties towards children. It's completely unacceptable for the UK Government, through this Bill, to be undermining the Senedd's legislative competence by attempting to decide what is in the best interests of children, or mandating particular methods of age assessment that are not considered good practice in Wales. Therefore, Llywydd, I ask Members to withhold their consent to these provisions in this Bill today. Diolch.

Chair of the Equality and Social Justice Committee first. Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much. The Equality and Social Justice Committee considered the Welsh Government's legislative consent memorandum in May, and wrote jointly with the Children, Young People and Education Committee to stakeholders with an interest in or expertise in the issues covered by the Bill, as well as to the Minister for Social Justice. We asked stakeholders to comment on the provisions of the Bill that relate to devolved areas of competence, primarily social care issues. We received eight responses, and it's striking that the key messages expressed were so consistent. Most respondents were opposed to the Bill, and those who gave a view on consent recommended the Senedd withhold consent.
Three key issues were raised about the UK Government's Bill: (1) the lack of compatibility with human rights; (2) the potential implication for children's rights; and (3) the Bill's potential to undermine Welsh policy and the legislative context, and, in particular, the Social Care and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. The Children's Commissioner for Wales described the implications for children's rights a a violation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.
The people at the centre of this issue are individual men, women and children who will each have their own desperate reasons or circumstances that lead them to, generally, attempt very perilous journeys. We share the desire to end dangerous channel crossings and the tragic loss of life that is happening in the English channel, but that is not going to happen unless we have alternative ways of applying for asylum into the UK. Unless you are a Ukrainian, you come from Hong Kong, and, possibly, if you're an Afghan translator, there are no alternative ways of applying before reaching the British isles.
Specifically, the purposes of clauses 19, 20, 55 and 56 relate to social care, which are all devolved matters. Furthermore, clause 3 would empower the Secretary of State to amend enactments within the Senedd's legislative competence without the Senedd's consent. So, this really would be a rolling back of devolution.
A majority of Members agreed that clauses 3, 19, 20, 55 and 56 require the Senedd's legislative consent, and one Member disagreed. The implications for devolved policy if the provisions of clause 15 to 18 were extended to Wales is that they are likely to undermine the role of local authorities in carrying out assessments of need under the Social Care and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. In treating unaccompanied minors and asylum-seeking children differently to other children, these clauses may violate the UNCRC and the rights-based approach that is central to our approach in Wales. Other established policy approaches adopted in Wales, including children first, migrants second, and the Welsh Government's ambition for Wales to be a nation of sanctuary, would also be put in jeopardy as a result. A majority of the committee recommends that the Senedd should withhold legislative consent, with one Member disagreeing. Another Member objected to the principle of the UK Government Bill enacting legislation that will apply to Wales, but was in support of the rejection of this LCM.

The Chair of the Children, Young People, and Education Committee, Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm contributing today in my capacity as Chair of the Children, Young People, and Education Committee, and I speak on behalf of a majority of the committee, but not on behalf of my colleagues James Evans and Laura Jones, who do not agree with the conclusions and recommendations set out in the report.
In February 2022, I spoke in this Chamber about the Nationality and Borders Bill during a debate that shared many of the same characteristics as this debate does today. Then, the majority of the committee concluded that the Senedd's consent was required for certain provisions in the Bill, although the UK Government did not agree that it was. And we recommended that the Senedd withhold this consent. We had received consistent evidence indicating that so-called scientific age-assessment techniques for assessing the age of asylum seekers, as set out in the Bill, were inaccurate and can be traumatising for young people.
Today, once again, I find myself speaking during a debate about another LCM about the treatment of age-disputed asylum seekers. Just like in February last year, we have concluded that the Senedd's consent is required for certain clauses in the Bill. And just like in February last year, we have recommended that the Senedd does not grant its consent.
Before I explain why we have come to these conclusions, I would like to thank the organisations who responded to our joint call, with the Equality and Social Justice Committee, for written evidence, and the Minister for Social Justice for responding comprehensively to our request for further information in such short timescales. The evidence we received was remarkably consistent, and underpins the conclusions and recommendations in our report.
Firstly, on the matter of whether consent is required, the UK Government does not believe that any clauses in the Bill require the legislative consent of the Senedd. The Bill's explanatory notes do not explain why in great detail. They indicate that the UK Government acknowledges that many clauses in the Bill extend to Wales, but does not believe that they engage the legislative consent process. We disagree. Clause 3 enables the Secretary of State to make amendments to any Senedd Acts or Measures for certain purposes. Clauses 19 and 20 relate to the provision of accommodation for unaccompanied migrant children and their transfer from one local authority to another, which impacts on the devolved area of social care. And two clauses change the nature of the age-assessment process for age-disputed asylum seekers in Wales, which also impacts on the devolved area of social care. Although the primary purpose of these provisions relates to the reserved area of immigration, we believe that they have a dual purpose that impacts on devolved matters.
Secondly, on whether the Senedd should grant its consent, if enacted, the Illegal Migration Bill will make what we believe are deeply concerning changes to the already controversial age-assessment process introduced by the Nationality and Borders Act 2022. The Bill all but strips young people of the right to appeal against an age-assessment decision. This is problematic in and of itself. The removal of the right of a young person to appeal against such a critical life-changing decision is troubling, but it is particularly problematic when recent evidence suggests that two thirds of these so-called scientific age assessments later turn out to be wrong. The Bill also gives the Secretary of State the power to presume that any age-disputed asylum seeker who does not consent to being subject to these controversial age-assessment techniques is an adult. This could mean that the Secretary of State has a duty to deport them under clause 2 of the Bill.
We have committed to placing children's rights at the heart of everything we do. All of the evidence that we have received indicates that the Illegal Migration Bill completely disregards children's rights and human rights more widely. So much so that the UK Government finds itself unable to confirm that the provisions of the Bill are compatible with the UN convention rights. And so much so that the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees has expressed profound concern about the Bill, noting that, if passed, it would breach the UK's obligation under international law. So, on behalf of children and young people everywhere, we recommend that the Senedd withholds its consent to this Bill today.

The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Llywydd. My committee reported yesterday on the legislative consent memorandum on the Illegal Migration Bill. We drew three conclusions and made one recommendation, and I will cover those briefly in my remarks.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Members will know that we approach our deliberations in a very dry and a very factual way. We look at the constitution and legal effects of a legislative proposal, but that does not necessarily make it less interesting.
Our first conclusion agreed with the Minister's assessment that clauses 3, 19, 20 and new clauses 55 and 56 of the Bill fall within a purpose within the legislative competence of the Senedd and therefore do require the consent of the Senedd.
Clauses 15 to 18 enable the Secretary of State to provide accommodation for unaccompanied migrant children in England, provide a framework for the Secretary of State to transfer children from Home Office accommodation to local authority care and vice versa, place information duties upon local authorities, and confer powers on the Secretary of State to enforce those duties. Clause 19 of the Bill would permit the extension of clauses 15 to 18 to Wales. Now, in doing so, it provides a power—and I want to spell this out—allowing the Secretary of State to amend, to repeal or revoke legislation made by Welsh Ministers or passed by this Senedd, without requiring the consent of either. Our report highlights that we do not consider this to be acceptable.
We note the Minister's comments, and the Senedd will note too, that the UK Government has failed to confirm that the Bill is compatible with the rights of the European convention on human rights, and, indeed, the Home Secretary has made a statement to that effect under section 19(1)(b) of the Human Rights Act 1998. 
The UK Government has also stated that it is satisfied that the provisions of the Bill are capable of being applied compatibly with convention rights. Memorandum No. 2 does not take this particular statement into account, and therefore we recommended that the Welsh Government should set out its views on this matter. I didn't hear that in the Minister's opening remarks, so I'd be grateful if she could perhaps respond to that at the end.
Our report also highlights the concerns of representatives of many leading international organisations, for example, the Council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, and we draw the attention of the Senedd to the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, a committee of both Houses at Westminster, who concluded that the Bill, and I quote,
'breaches a number of the UK's international human rights obligations...and risks breaching others.'
I say once again, we come at this from a very dry legal and constitutional approach, but that's pretty clear. So, as Members will know, the devolution settlement requires the Welsh Ministers to comply with both international obligations and convention rights. The Welsh Government's ministerial code also places specific duties on Ministers to comply with international law and with treaty obligations.
So, this brings me to the two final conclusions of our unanimous report, which all of the Members will want to consider seriously, as we seek today to collectively and individually give our view as a Parliament on the important matter of consent. Firstly, we share the concerns of the Minister and the many bodies referred to in our report, and, indeed, those of other committees here, about the compatibility of the Bill with the European convention on human rights. Furthermore, we highlight that a decision by the Senedd to consent to this Bill could contribute to a breach of international law and would mean the Senedd acting incompatibly with international obligations, which would be in stark contrast to the spirit of the devolution settlement.
So, those are the agreed conclusions of our committee, and I thank all of our Members for their very studied and impartial consideration of the legal advice on the evidence and the analysis. My thanks also to our clerks and the wider team too for their assistance. We hope our report is of help to all Members of the Senedd in reaching a decision on consent.

Mark Isherwood AC: Wales, as a nation of sanctuary, exists for friends from overseas once they arrive here and access devolved services, although, of course, those services are already under massive pressure, with a housing supply crisis and the worst NHS waiting times in Britain. However, immigration is a non-devolved matter reserved to the UK Government. Of course, we do recognise concerns about the impact this Bill may have on unaccompanied children and victims of human trafficking, about the need for safe and legal routes into the UK and about the need to provide sanctuary for those fleeing war and persecution. We're also aware that these concerns are being raised by Members of all parties in both UK Houses of Parliament, where responsibility for amending this legislation lies. However, we also acknowledge that over 45,700 people arrived in small boats in 2022, a 60 per cent increase on the preceding year; that people have lost their lives attempting to cross the UK's busiest shipping lane in flimsy boats; that those making these crossings are travelling from safe countries; that the people who make these journeys are manipulated by people smugglers who charge them thousands of pounds before using this money to fund other serious crime; and that we cannot continue adding unacceptable pressures on our health, housing, education and welfare services.
The duty to remove, in clause 2(1) of the Bill, does not require the Secretary of State to make removal arrangements for unaccompanied children until they turn 18 years old. [Interruption.] As a matter of policy, the power in clause 3(2) of the Bill—. Sorry, is that an intervention?

Yes.

Mark Isherwood AC: Oh, sorry. Yes.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you. Thank you for taking an intervention. We talk about unaccompanied minors and we talk about keeping them safe and the removal of the right for us to do that. Do you share the same concerns that I have that the UK Government, charged with keeping unaccompanied minors safe, have managed to lose more than 100 children, and they don't even know where they are? That's not really a good record of keeping minors safe.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, I think it's horrific that gangs are stealing children off our streets, and I share your concern. But as a matter of policy, the power in clause 3(2) of the Bill will only be exercised for unaccompanied children whilst under 18 in very limited circumstances ahead of them reaching adulthood, such as for the purposes of family reunion, or where removal is to a safe country of origin. If someone is identified as a potential victim of modern slavery, the Bill will ensure they're safely returned home or to another safe country. Removal from the UK may be deferred where a person is co-operating with law enforcement agencies in an investigation into the circumstances of their trafficking or modern slavery.
Between 2015 and December 2022, the UK offered a place to 481,804 men, women and children seeking safety via safe and legal entry routes. We now need to see a commitment from the Welsh Government to working alongside the UK Government to increase the availability of safe and regular routes to our shared UK. As illegal migration is restricted, the UK Government will have greater capacity to provide a safe haven for those at risk of war and persecution. And the Bill provides for the UK Government to commit to resettling vulnerable refugees from around the world, every year. We will be supporting this motion accordingly.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Every time an LCM comes before this Parliament, I say the same thing, and you've heard it already this afternoon: regardless of the subject matter, Plaid Cymru firmly believes that all decisions related to devolved areas of competence should be made by this Senedd, in line with the democratic wishes of the people of Wales. The fact that the UK Government has increasingly resorted to the use of LCMs in recent years underlines the damaging centralisation agenda that is a flagrant disregard of our devolution.
We now turn to the subject of this LCM, which must surely rank as one the vilest pieces of legislation that has come before us. This Bill is designed to attack the rights of refugees and asylum seekers. My party is against the inhumane Illegal Migration Bill that has been proposed by Westminster, and have fought it at every level of Government. It comes as no surprise that we will not be voting in favour of the LCM that is being discussed in this Senedd regarding the Illegal Migration Bill.
With our goal of being a nation of sanctuary, cruel and callous legislation such as this has no place whatsoever in Wales. If we had the necessary powers in our country, we could ensure that this inhumane Bill towards refugees would not apply here. This goes to the heart of why Plaid Cymru backs independence: it is not for the sake of independence, but so that we can shield ourselves from retrograde and draconian policies emanating from Westminster.
The plans for detention and deportation under the Bill will violate the rights of refugees. From housing refugees in prison-style barges and disused military camps, to deportation to Rwanda, there is seemingly no end to this horrific treatment of refugees by the Tory party, in return for a tawdry headline in a tabloid newspaper.
Putting ethics to one side, it also makes no financial sense, as the policy is completely ineffectual. If the billions of pounds this is all costing could be used to fix the asylum process within the UK, then we may get somewhere. The UK needs to refocus its priorities, to fix the broken asylum process systems that the Tory party have run into the ground. Irregular migration is on the rise across the world, and this requires a global response. Instead of implementing such an inhumane Bill, we should be working with other countries to develop safe routes that protect the human rights of refugees, as well as investing in efforts to tackle climate change.
To conclude, I would like to ask the following questions. What consideration has the Minister made of alternative routes available to mitigate risks and uphold protections for those affected by this Bill? And, learning from the Ukrainian supersponsorship scheme, will the Welsh Government consider how to offer the same level of protections for all refugees and people seeking asylum? Finally, will the Welsh Government commit to reviewing—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Will you take an intervention?

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I'm sorry, I'm just finishing.
Finally, will the Welsh Government commit to reviewing protections for asylum seekers in Wales in light of this Bill? Diolch yn fawr.

Joyce Watson AC: I want to speak, obviously, in favour of what the Minister has put forward. It's worth noting, isn't it, that this is headed the Illegal Migration Bill, rather than an assumption to help asylum seekers—because, mainly, that's what we're talking about—and offering some safe routes, which have been mentioned here today. And there is obviously—[Interruption.] No, not at the moment, no.
There is no compassion here in any of this at all. I've heard the Tory Members in this Chamber, I've heard the Tory Members in Westminster mentioning the fact that we are supporting minors, including asylum seekers, leaving care. I've seen headlines about the help that we have given, but what I fail absolutely to see or hear in this Chamber from the Tories is anything whatsoever about the numbers of children that they've lost and the welfare of those children, and urging the Government to look for them. I haven't heard a word about that, but I have heard plenty here and I've seen the tweets—which I think are appalling—by their leader, actually putting together the help that we are giving children who have come into our care, who are the most vulnerable of children, and linking that up with something else: using and abusing those children. So, I had to say that. [Interruption.]
The removal of children, of course, under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child—

Are you taking an intervention, Joyce Watson?

Joyce Watson AC: No, I'm not, because I'm going to have my say. This is not only chipping away at devolution, and here we see the chipping away of devolution under the auspices, apparently, of an Illegal Migration Bill, but they've done it elsewhere too. So, they stop at nothing, it seems to me, to try and promote their right-wing agenda, and that is exactly what it is. It's promoting a system of hate, of us and them, and there are no answers in any of this in terms of how they're going to help people have a safe passage. If they spent the money on that—and Peredur was quite right—instead of trying to persecute people who are trying to seek asylum, if they spent some of that money in trying to accommodate those minors, those children, if they spent some of that money trying to find the ones they've managed to lose—. And if you lose children and then you're asking us to hand over through legislation your right to look after them, I think you're very mistaken.

Sioned Williams MS: Plaid Cymru has voiced our utter condemnation of this Illegal Migration Bill many times, both in this place and in the Houses of Parliament, and, again, I would assert that illegal it certainly is, with human rights organisations in complete agreement, as we've heard, and even the Home Secretary unable to deny that the Bill is incompatible with the international human rights treaties of which the UK is a signatory, including the European convention on human rights, the 1951 refugee convention and the 1948 universal declaration of human rights.
Llywydd, no Member of this Senedd should consent to a Bill that could require Wales to breach international human rights law, contrary to our own devolution settlement. Plaid Cymru agrees with the Welsh Government that it undermines the rights of unaccompanied asylum seeker children and young people, and is completely and shamefully incompatible with the child-first, migrant-second approach that upholds the best interests and rights of children in Wales. And it is wholly inconsistent with our commitment to being a nation of sanctuary.
Plaid Cymru agrees with the concerns voiced by the British Red Cross that this Bill—[Interruption.] No, we've heard enough of your opinions on social media, thank you very much. Plaid Cymru agrees with the concerns voiced by the British Red Cross that this Bill will take away existing protections from unaccompanied children and victims of human trafficking. Plaid Cymru agrees with the Welsh Refugee Council and Welsh Refugee Coalition that the Senedd should oppose this Bill entirely, and withhold legislative consent in order to comply with our obligations to protect victims of trafficking in Wales. [Interruption.] We reject absolutely this inhumane, immoral attempt to persecute, dehumanise and abandon those who need support and protection.
And even if the moral and legal arguments aren't enough, Plaid Cymru agrees with the independent Institute for Government and other policy experts who have concluded that this is an ineffective and ill-founded piece of legislation. The Bill states that, by requiring the removal of people who arrive in the UK by irregular means, it aims to 'deter unlawful migration', particularly by dangerous routes. But, says the Institute for Government,
'there is little evidence to demonstrate that those willing to risk their lives...will be deterred by changes to asylum policy.'
We hear Conservative MPs and Members of this Senedd shamefully repeat the so-called 'pull factor orthodoxy', the idea that by instituting a harsher system people will be put off travelling to the UK. But the Institute for Government categorically state this 'lacks any robust evidence'. It’s a political, ideological position.
Plaid Cymru, of course, fundamentally opposes any attempt to undermine the right and power of this Senedd to legislate in devolved policy areas. This Bill is the perfect example of why we hold that view. We, the elected representatives of the people of Wales, must be given the right to decide what benefits our own communities and who we would welcome to those communities. And I would ask you, Minister, how many times are you going to wring your hands before seeing the answer to this lies in the Government elected by the people of Wales having the powers to ensure that any legislation incompatible with the values and best interests of Wales, such as this illegal Bill, would not apply in Wales?
One of the most powerful appeals amongst the countless made by organisations against the passing of the Bill was made by Jewish refugee groups. The Wiener Holocaust Library is the world’s oldest and Britain’s largest collection of original archival material on the Nazi era, and this year marks its ninetieth birthday. The library has its origins in the work of Dr Alfred Wiener, who campaigned against Nazism in the 1920s and 1930s and gathered evidence about antisemitism and the persecution of Jews in Germany. It also holds unique collections relating to the experiences of Jewish refugee families who came to Britain in the 1930s and 1940s. In a rare political intervention, the library, together with the Association of Jewish Refugees, said both organisations are concerned about the impact of the Government’s proposed Illegal Migration Bill and the discourse and language surrounding its formulation. While the library’s collection attests to the agony experienced by those who had to flee persecution, the AJR has continuously supported refugees and survivors.
'If "Never Again" is to become reality rather than a refrain, we must show leadership to open our doors to bring those at risk out of harm's way.'
When we say 'never again', we must mean it, we must live it, we must enforce it; we must never undermine it.

The Minister for Social Justice to reply. Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and I do thank Members today for their contributions to this very important debate. Particularly, can I start by thanking the Chairs of the key committees who scrutinised this LCM, endorsing the position I have taken in relation to this Bill, endorsing the Welsh Government's commitment to a nation of sanctuary? And I thank all those who gave evidence to your committees, including the Welsh Refugee Council, who many of us met today on the steps of the Senedd, meeting refugees whose lives, of course, have been put at risk by conflict and who came here seeking this nation of sanctuary and support.
We're clear in our programme for government that we are committed to continuing to uphold the rights and entitlements of unaccompanied asylum seeker children, and we’re proud we take a child-first, migrant-second approach, and we’re proud that this upholds the best interests, rights and entitlements to providing care and support to children in Wales. Any policy proposal that appears to diminish this statutory position—it’s our statutory position here in Wales—is not one that we would support.
There has been mention of the need for safe and legal routes, and I, of course, in my opening remarks, called again for this. I would like to again remind Members of the statement that I made on 31 March, 'Safe and Legal Routes for Asylum Seekers', which we’ve been calling for from the UK Government. And I just want to remind people of the Dubs scheme. I actually reminded them in my statement:
'Our position is that a feature of a European-wide resettlement agreement',
which I believe we would all subscribe to,
'should also involve the UK reintroducing a scheme similar to the "Dubs" scheme...—named after Lord Alf Dubs. This safe and legal route to the UK was closed several years ago but ensured particularly vulnerable unaccompanied children were able to come to the UK safely rather than making dangerous journeys.'
And we called for that—and, of course, our colleagues in Westminster called for that—to be extended and supported, and I do say that:
'The Ukraine Eligible Minors scheme provides a model for how a more effective version of the Dubs scheme might be designed.'
So, clearly, Llywydd, this UK Government Bill makes provision within the devolved competence of the Senedd as Members have recognised—provision that we do not support. And I cannot recommend that the Senedd gives consent to these provisions included in the Bill. I think it is important to just remember what those leading medical experts and bodies said yesterday. Professor Kevin Fenton, president of the Faculty of Public Health, said,
'There should be no place for locking up children who have fled terrible circumstances to find safety in the UK. The evidence is clear that it causes horrific harm to their physical and mental health with lifelong consequences'.
We cannot stand by and allow this Bill to put vulnerable children through such cruelty. That’s why we are calling for an urgent meeting to urge the Government to put an end to these appalling proposals, and that’s why we today in the Senedd must call together—as the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee said so clearly—and show our commitment to putting children’s rights at the heart of everything we do. So, please, Members, today, come together and withhold consent for the Illegal Migration Bill.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection, therefore, I defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

11. Report Stage for the Agriculture (Wales) Bill

The next item will be the Report Stage for the Agriculture (Wales) Bill, and there is a single amendment in this Report Stage, and that amendment relates to provision of support for farmers, and I call on the Minister to move amendment 1, Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 1 (Lesley Griffiths) moved.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The amendment tabled in my name seeks to replace the amendment to section 9(3) introduced at Stage 3. On 24 May, I tabled a motion to remove this Bill to Report Stage, where I outlined the constraints and the challenging impacts resulting from the introduction of section 9(3), which severely restricts the Welsh Government's future ability to provide support across the agricultural sector. As I have stated previously on many occasions here in the Chamber, during committee scrutiny and with our stakeholders, this Agriculture (Wales) Bill must work for all farmers, and not create barriers to the support that can be provided to the sector.
Currently, section 9(3) within the Bill is particularly challenging and risks narrowing the support that Welsh Ministers may provide to the sector under section 8 of the Bill. This provision does not work for all farmers across the sector. This includes common land graziers, where the conditions within the provision may exclude financial support for those farmers with rights over common land, where such farmers may not have full management control over the land. Furthermore, under section 9(3), Welsh Ministers would be unable to provide financial support towards the development of business plans to new entrants who are not currently in occupation of land, or who do not meet the other requirements of section 9(3), such as operating land where the predominant use is agriculture.
Farmers are at the heart of our agricultural sector and the communities in which they operate. It is my intention through this Bill for future support such as the sustainable farming scheme to be available for and directed towards all types of farmers, from farm business owners to tenant farmers, and common land farmers alike. It is key to keeping our farmers on the land, enabling them to do what they do best. It is for this reason that I have tabled the amendment to replace section 9(3) of the Bill, one that does not exclude farmers and the diverse range of support required to help our agricultural sector thrive.
My Government amendment avoids the issues arising from section 9(3) and provides on the face of the Bill that schemes established pursuant to section 8 may provide support, subject to eligibility criteria being met. Eligibility criteria would be set as part of the scheme design process, and the provision provides examples of eligibility criteria relating to financial and other support provided under section 8. The amendment aligned with section 12 of the Bill,which provides Welsh Ministers with the power to check, amongst other things, whether eligibility for support has been met. This amendment recognises the importance of agriculture and those farmers who actively manage the land by making it clear that Welsh Ministers may set preconditions to schemes, such as who will be eligible to obtain and benefit from support from schemes established under section 8 of the Bill.
The eligibility criteria will be determined by each support scheme established under section 8, and may evolve over time as farming and land management adapts and changes. The provision reflects the flexibility that Welsh Ministers need in practice to set appropriate eligibility criteria for schemes operating under the power to provide support. The eligibility criteria may enable support to be targeted towards those individuals actively managing Welsh land, which contributes towards achieving the sustainable land management objectives, such as to produce food and other goods in a sustainable manner.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm grateful to get one final chance to speak on this matter before the Agriculture (Wales) Bill passes to Stage 4. Whilst I appreciate that a voting error made on the Government benches during the Stage 3 debate has brought this back to the Chamber today, and the Minister has outlined their concerns as to what my original amendment 55 could have caused through unintended consequences, I am disappointed that, despite positive engagement during earlier stages of the Bill, neither the Government nor the Minister have reached out to me or these benches in an effort to find consensus on the purpose of my original amendment or to work together to overcome those perceived unintended consequences—something I understand has been done previously with other Bills.
I repeat the comments that I made when the motion to consider further amendments to the Agriculture (Wales) Bill at report stage was brought to the floor of the Senedd before the Whitsun recess. The purpose of amendment 55 was twofold. Firstly, it was to ensure that our farmers, be they tenant farmers, lowland or highland farmers, were prioritised in the targeting of support—the active farmers. Secondly, and consequently, it was to ensure that large corporations, which artificially inflate the price of Welsh farmland by gazumping local potential buyers, do not get public money to plant trees to offset their carbon footprint without changing any of their own business behaviours—an emotive topic that has been raised on the floor of this Chamber several times.
I note the amendment tabled in the name of the Minister, which we are today debating, does go a small way to alleviating these concerns. However, I’m left wondering if, by not having stronger and more explicit language, we leave a loophole open for exploitation to the detriment of Wales’s farmers and our rural communities. Had my amendment 55 passed, alongside the other amendments in my name, the unintended consequences would not have materialised and stronger protections would have been given to our communities and to those that the Government chose to give support to via public funds.
This is a landmark Bill—one that is of great importance to Wales’s farmers, our countryside and our environment. And as we celebrate Welsh food and farming week, I look forward to seeing the Minister and the Government at the NFU Cymru celebration of Welsh food and farming event in the Neuadd shortly. Diolch, Llywydd.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Throughout the Bill's journey through the Senedd, Plaid Cymru have endeavoured to champion the Welsh family farm, rural communities and the agricultural sector more broadly, both economically and culturally.
Cast your mind back to the first iteration of this proposed Bill, 'Brexit and our land' in 2018, whereby the Government proposed that the future support should follow the provision of public goods from land, whereby large multinational organisations could claim Welsh public funds for things like timber crops. The Bill as it is now is a million miles away from those initial proposals.
The first draft was, effectively, a proposal for an environment Bill dressed up as an agriculture Bill. While we all fully accept the need to play our part in the fight against global climate change and for the restoration of nature, an agriculture Bill should be about protecting and enhancing agriculture, the production of food, and the maintenance of the community supported by the sector, as well as delivering for the climate.
The Bill as introduced left a lot to be desired on food production and on the importance of agriculture to the economy and cultural vibrancy of Wales. Those of us who live and breathe farming know full well that the primary role of agriculture is to produce food. It's because farmers produce the food that is on our plates that others don't have to produce their own food. Farmers farm so others don't have to. We also see daily the contribution that the farming community makes to our local economy and the vibrant culture that we have here in Wales. Farmers add value, not only economically but culturally. These contributions are now central to the proposed new agri Bill, thanks to Plaid Cymru.
One of the most significant changes we've managed to instill in the agri Bill is to gain a recognition of the fact that farming families must plan their business for years in advance. They need to know which fields to plough and reseed, should they take on more cattle, field rotation, will they need to grow crops for feed, and numerous other decisions that must be made years before they can benefit from that investment. Therefore, a farmer needs security in order to invest in the knowledge that it will help them produce food for us to eat, years in advance. To that end, Plaid Cymru have managed to also secure a multi-annual support plan settlement as part of the new agri Bill, with the Government having to provide assurance on the support schemes available on a five-year cycle, an indicative idea of what funding will be, several years in advance.
Finally, this brings me to my final point. The amendment that was put forward by Samuel Kurtz and supported by us was done so in good faith. It was done in order to avoid that situation, which I mentioned earlier, whereby large multinationals and organisations not involved in farming could claim public funds that are meant for food production. In short, it was a sincere attempt to define an active farmer, and that in law. I thank Samuel Kurtz for his endeavours to that effect. However, it became apparent that the wording would cause all sorts of difficulties, and so had to be revisited. I am grateful, therefore, to the Minister for her assurances regarding ensuring that money is targeted where it should be, keeping farmers on the land, as we heard, and we can avoid the situation of money being taken out of farming to support non-farming enterprises. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The Minister to reply.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, and thank you to the two Members for their contributions. I certainly think, in the discussion I had with Sam Kurtz, he absolutely recognised that there were unintended consequences, and I know you've raised previously with me around the issue of corporations and companies purchasing agricultural land for the purposes of planting trees for carbon offsetting. And it's always been a Welsh Government priority to keep farmers on their land. Of course, I can't prevent any farmer selling their land to anybody, but I will not support what you've just raised around corporations and companies then planting trees for their carbon offsetting, and that's not where we want the money to go. I do expect us to set eligibility conditions for schemes established under section 8 of the Bill, enabling financial and non-financial support to be directed to the appropriate person, as Mabon ap Gwynfor has just said, and that is farmers who are farming the land.
I absolutely agree: agriculture is a long-term sector. When they're looking at plans, they have to do that. But the biggest threats to sustainable food production are the climate and nature emergencies, and that's why we have to have that balance. But unfortunately, the amendment that was passed would have meant that people like vets and abattoirs wouldn't be eligible for financial support, or any other businesses in the agricultural supply chain—all things that our rural community depends on. Shared farming agreements, partnerships including family partnerships, could also be ineligible for the receipt of financial support. So, I would urge Members to support this Government amendment. Diolch.

The question is that amendment 1 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection, and we will therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 1, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move immediately to a vote on amendment 1—amendment 1 to the agriculture Bill.
Therefore, a vote on amendment 1—

Joyce Watson AC: It hasn't opened. It hasn't been opened.

You're right, Joyce Watson—I haven't opened the vote.

Open the vote, then, on amendment 1. Close the—.Okay, a technical problem for Mabon ap Gwynfor once again? Okay. How do you cast your vote, Mabon?

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: In favour.

In favour. Close the vote. In favour 38, no abstentions, 15 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

Item 11: Report Stage of the Agriculture (Wales) Bill. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 38, Against: 15, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

As the amendment is agreed, we have reached the end of our Report Stage consideration of the Agriculture (Wales) Bill, and I declare that all sections of the Bill and all Schedules are deemed agreed. [Applause.]

All sections of the Bill deemed agreed.

12. Voting Time

We will now move to voting time for the remainder of our votes this afternoon. The first vote is on the LCM on the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill, and I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Dawn Bowden. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 43, no abstentions, 10 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 9: LCM on the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill: For: 43, Against: 10, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote will be on the LCM on the Illegal Migration Bill, and I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 10: LCM on the Illegal Migration Bill: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

That concludes voting for today. Thank you, all.

The meeting ended at 18:47.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Gareth Davies: Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's strategy to reduce waiting times at Glan Clwyd Hospital?

Mark Drakeford: Waiting times for both elective and emergency care have shown improvements over the last year. There is still work to be done. Within the special measures regime, the health Minister has set clear targets for the next 90 days, and I expect to see continued improvements in waiting times.

Joel James: What action is the Welsh Government taking to preserve hedgehog populations?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government supports a range of initiatives to help hedgehogs. This includes the provision of wildlife underpasses on trunk roads and funding local nature partnerships to co-ordinate local biodiversity action, such as providing advice and materials to communities to promote hedgehog-friendly gardens.

Ken Skates: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of school-dinner debts on pupils?

Mark Drakeford: No child should go hungry. Local authorities and schools should work in partnership with families experiencing difficulties with payment of school meals to find a solution to ensure no child goes without a meal at lunch time.

Janet Finch-Saunders: What urgent steps is the First Minister taking to overturn barriers to house building in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: The delivery of good-quality homes across Wales is a priority for this Government. We are providing record levels of funding to support this priority and we are working in collaboration with the sector to overcome challenges.